blonde poker forum

OK so playing the Big $22 today and have been bouncing between 20th and 75th for since 2000 runners left and there are now about 600 left, with the bubble at 495.

I pick up Kings EP and decide to limp, with a view to catching out a short(ish) stack if they raise in late position.  However it folds around to the BB and this happens:

PokerStars Game #73341347650: Tournament #554010394, $20+$2 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (300/600) - 2012/01/05 14:39:30 ET
Table '554010394 85' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: xlamaster (21448 in chips)
Seat 2: Legendus (8754 in chips)
Seat 3: mariusc1 (18521 in chips)
Seat 4: Strive4Shine (21503 in chips)
Seat 5: RensPl (20937 in chips)
Seat 6: FloydForward (11194 in chips)
Seat 7: jjandellis (29085 in chips)
Seat 8: -N-holland (8000 in chips)
Seat 9: Pif37 (53062 in chips)
xlamaster: posts the ante 70
Legendus: posts the ante 70
mariusc1: posts the ante 70
Strive4Shine: posts the ante 70
RensPl: posts the ante 70
FloydForward: posts the ante 70
jjandellis: posts the ante 70
-N-holland: posts the ante 70
Pif37: posts the ante 70
Strive4Shine: posts small blind 300
RensPl: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jjandellis [Kc Kh]
FloydForward: folds
jjandellis: calls 600
-N-holland: folds
Pif37: folds
xlamaster: folds
Legendus: folds
mariusc1: folds
Strive4Shine: folds
RensPl: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h Qh 4d]
RensPl: checks
jjandellis: bets 1065
RensPl: raises 1935 to 3000
jjandellis: raises 3000 to 6000
RensPl: raises 14267 to 20267 and is all-in
jjandellis: calls 14267
*** TURN *** [2h Qh 4d] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [2h Qh 4d 5s] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RensPl: shows [4h Qd] (two pair, Queens and Fours)
jjandellis: shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
RensPl collected 42664 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 42664 | Rake 0
Board [2h Qh 4d 5s 6c]
Seat 1: xlamaster folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Legendus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: mariusc1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Strive4Shine (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: RensPl (big blind) showed [4h Qd] and won (42664) with two pair, Queens and Fours
Seat 6: FloydForward folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: jjandellis showed [Kc Kh] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: -N-holland folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Pif37 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I haven't played against the villain before but he appears tight (13/10).  At what point do you get away from this hand?

Do you fold to his initial raise? Do you definitely get away from his shove?

dont limp KK pre

never fold the flop

Raise Pre.

you have KK and 30bbs

Not sure I agree with the second statement

Flat his c/r and take a turn card.

The beautiful phrase, "don't go broke in an unraised pot" springs to mind.

Do you think villain is really 4bet shoving Qx or a FD?

so playing 30bbs, lets say you raised pre and bb peeled - you fold that flop?

i prepared to take my chance with KK

pretty sure he can have Axhh / AQ

You can assign a completely different range when he calls a raise. It's not the same as limping at all.

im still not folding

Whilst I doubt the OP has anywhere near enough hands for the 13/10 stats of villain to be majorly relevant, I'd really doubt that someone who is a winning player (as villain is) is 4bet shoving the flop with a flush draw. In fact, I don't ever see the villain 4bet shoving the flop with anything we beat other than perhaps AQ. That's the absolute bottom of his range imo.

Still think we can flat the flop c/r and go from there.

Problem is I don't ever flat with anything ever when first in so tough to say what I'd do. Wouldn't be crazy about getting it in as played tho

Surely the whole point is that limping KK is pretty terrible play (without a very specific reason to do it)

The question we should be asking is why did he limp?

Poker in 2012 is about playing hands for value. Trapping is beyond yesterday (on the whole). We are delighted to get this in pre if we can, and there are very few spots where we are folding post flop maybe a 9TJ type board might slow us down.

This is a $22 MTT where people will just give you chips. Therefore play your hands in order that they can

and this is why we dont limp pre, because if we arent prepare to get it in on this type of board against a BB atc, we will always feel like this, even when the BB decides to spazz his brains out

Im sure you already heard dont limp kings etc. Blah blah blah. However, I also think the way you presented this hand is telling. You say what his pre flop stats are even though you have not actually given him any opps to give you his pre flop range.

You need to look beyond these stats and look at aggression freq amoung other more relevant stats.

Also you say its a 'helleva sin' but say your 'ambushing' has worked well. Look over the hands and see if people stacked off lite or infact you just coolered the guy? It reminds me of the whole 'trapping kings with aces' spot.

Think like this if somone limp raises it looks a lot stronger  and less balanced than someome who bet/4bets it in.

I know what you mean to an extent. You can play exploitable vs poorer players and get away with it in certain comps. I remember just 3 bet shoving any QQ+ hand in the first few levels of sunday storm/quarter million.

I hate pre and I really hate the flop play. I just don't see you being ahead here ever.

Also, outrageous, the SPR changes a lot when you m/r pre and so does his range.

I know the hate pre-flop argument has already been said, but your 'view to catching out short(ish) stacks' mindset is misguided here. Of the stacks to act behind you there's one 13BB stack and another 15ishBB stack. The rest are all 30BB+ meaning you're far better just open raising and calling a shove or 4B jamming (or inducing) should someone 3b over your open if you're looking to 'catch' anyone out imo.

when someone who hasn't let limps limps in early(ish) position in a tournament my range to iso him is....

AA. and KK.

If someone is bad enough to fall for this little trap (literally the oldest in time) then they are bad enough to overcall  Tc 6c preflop and do most of their chips on a T high board, so there is just no need at all to take this line pre-flop, it makes it s obvious what you have, and when it goes wrong you put yourself in horrible un-avoidable spots.

One note on "trapping" you can only trap someone if they have a good hand anyway, if I have Tc 7s, 4d 2h, Jc 5d or such hands then I'm going to fold regardless of the action. If you raise and I have Ks Qs, I will be giving you action, there are spots where you get MARGINALLY worse hands to enter the pot but most of the time you're just costing yourself value by not raising with good cards.

Its just overly fancy for no reason

Cliffs and pics please Lee

Geo