blonde poker forum

Hey all I am new here... names Steve go under the name of PhatBoyPoker... (long story)

Right I played at a venue the other day, and had two rulings, one where I was involved and one where it was last hand before a break and my table had broke... and was watching another table...

1. I was in a hand with pocket 3's, I had limped pre and was raised by the BB... I flat call... board comes 2 4 Q... I was pretty sure the other guy hadnt hit, he gestured a checking motion (like when you fist tap the table) but he did it in mid air, looking at me as he did it... I took it as a check, and checked behind him... even the dealer went to put the turn card down... but as soon as I said check... the BB announced "900" and proceeded to put a bet in... to me this was a move, he totally denied having checked, and said his motion was relating to someone else on the table he was having a conversation with...

I asked for a ruling... 2 other guys at the table (other locals as the BB was) were getting involved belittling the idea he would make a move for such a small pot (around 600 odd) My argument was he gestured that he was checking, and only when I checked behind him did he then bet... Anyways the card room manager ruled in his favour, saying he hadn't tapped the table, or said check... however there are loads of other gestures people do to check... Anyone know what the rules would be on this ?

2. The hand I wasn't involved in but watched... a guy raised pretty big pre flop in the cut off position... he got a caller who had limped in early position... the board comes A 5 9, first guy checks, original raiser C bets... A on turn, first guy checks, original raiser bets out 2 thirds of the pot... A on river, first guy bets out but fairly small... the original raiser shoves all in putting the other guy all in... Now I would guess that the guy put to the sword probably has 25-30% of his stack already in, but it's a deepstack and probably has a good 40 BB's left...

He dwells up for ages, and then shows the guy who went all in a 9 (nine) the dealer says, "So you've folded" and the player who has shown the 9 says no... he looks across at the guy whos gone all in and says to him "see I have a 9" waits a few seconds then calls... the guy who had gone all in was indeed on a bluff... and the guy with the 9 wins...

The guy calls for a ruling about the guy exposing his card... and I have to say I agree with him. Surely you cant show your card, as this would surely allow you to get a read potentially off the guy who's all in. The card room manager ruled that it was ok, that the guy showing the 9 couldnt make any more action... but to me that's a joke, the action as happened and he only has the option to fold or call... he cant create additional action (as in raise) surely that's an unfair situation to get a read on a player... I am not suggesting the player who showed the 9 is good enough to get a read, but surely that's the potential benefit ?

Anyways would love to hear some opinions on this :)

Thanks

Steve

Hi Steve, welcome aboard.

Which Venue was this at, if I may ask, please?

Hey Tikay...

It was at The Luton G Casino... I understand some Casinos have "local rules" I know not all casinos work off the same rules, which is a big problem as it causes inconsistances... but surely there is some guidlines to how the game should be played... etiquette and all that... My one I put down to a move by a player with little etiquette... a cheap stunt to win a pot, I nearly moved all in to be honest just to put him to the test... lol.

But the hand I watched seem wrong all round... in both etiquette and surely the rules of the game... the result cost the guy who went all in a massive pot, he lost some 80% of his chips... I just cant believe you can be heads up in a hand, be all in, and have the last player to act gain an advantage by exposing his cards...

1. When the floor is called over, the dealer should be authoritative enough to convince the TD that player A checked. If the dealer sees a check, then it's a check. If you check out of turn by mistake or you thought you saw a check but the dealer didn't, then obviously your argument is invalid. If the dealer has moved the action to you because he saw a check, the check should stand and the player involved should be encouraged to be more careful when making gestures that may be perceived as an action.

2. All casinos have different rules about this. If your hand isn't declared folded by exposing any part of it, then you should be given a warning or a penalty as this is a pretty clear angle. The only exception might be if it's a hand between friends who don't mind etc.

1. What zerofive said.

2. AFAIK, ruling given is the correct one but the player who exposed the card gets a one round penalty.

Did you expect him to say Luton G Tony?

In regards to 1... well I dont think the dealer was strong enough, the way the player acted (aggressively) and the two mates who joined in the same... didn't make it easy for the dealer to say anything... 3 grown men barking that I was out of order, that he never checked, that he would never make a move like that... blah blah...

The dealer said very little when asked... however he went to put the turn card down. hence he thought we'd both checked...

The player clearly gestured a checking motion... whether with an intention to check, or to simulate a check to get a reaction from me... how can you say I checked out of turn ? I thought he had checked, hence why I then checked behind him... Can you not doing other gestures to check, how many players just simply point to the next player, or do some sort of motion with their hand... this was a full checking motion from this guy just in mid air... my bad I guess for assuming that it was a check... and falling for such a move...

The dealer even appologised to me, and when we had a dealer change he said "at least now you got a dealer who knows more about the game"... enough said ?

In regards to number 2... the right one ? Wow, really ? How in gods earth can it be the right one... as the other guy said it's definetly a "angle" the guy made it to get a read, how is that fair ? I guess if he'd turned both over accidently I could see why the hand want dead, but to deliberatly turn it over to see the reaction of the player ?

Isn't there a rule that you can lie about what hand you have, but cant declare the actual hand ? Surely showing the actual hand is worse no ?

I guess seeing the Card Room Manager who made the decision laughing and hugging the player in the break made it just a tad worse... glad it wasnt me in the hand would of put me on life tilt...

It's a tournament, it's much worse if it's between friends

It's the right ruling because you can't kill a hand for exposing a card. You can, however, stop them from taking aggressive action.

Personally I'm of the belief that people should be able to expose their cards when they want. After all, if you want to tell your oppo exactly what he has then feel free!

As for your life sentence, that particular card room manager is one of the best and would not have made a ruling to favour his friends. Assuming of course it was George, who posts on here as "relaedgc". If it wasn't, I would recommend you contact him as he is the manager of the Luton G Casino Poker Room.

There has been a lot of debate about this over the years.  Any rule that kills an exposed hand opens the door for all sorts of horrific angle-shoots that commonly happened in rooms that had such a rule.  People who are actually able to get reliable reads from exposing cards are few and far between and the greater concern is showing cards in a bubble situation to avoid a call - a penalty is therfore an adequate response to the situation.

LOL I have heard this argument and it's flawed... aggressive action in this case is making the call... there is no more action to be had, it's on the river, the guy has gone all in... the guy then showing his card is getting additional information by showing his card... how can that be right ? Saying all his allowed to do is call, is like saying someone with a gun is only allowed to shoot someone in the head ? Still ends up with the same result... the guy making the bluff with the all in lost 80% of his stack... due to a move/angle made by another player trying to get a unfair read... It just dont sit well with me I guess... any TD's in here want to comment ?

It wasn't a HIM, it was a HER... I have also emailed G about the rulings... yes I felt that much about them lol... well more so wanted clarification... As I stated in my last post the fact that people are sayign he can only call after exposing his card is pretty flawed... So your telling me this is exceptable in cash and tournements alike ?

Can someone link me to any list of rules that confirms this ? No offense to any who have commented, but I seriously wuld love to see it in black and white... or if any TD's post on here, would love to hear their opinions...

Hmmmm... The bigger angle is showing the card to get a read... hence why people doing it should result in a dead hand... have to be honest I have now googled it and most say the hand is dead, I guess some dont opens the door for inconsistancy :(

52:   Exposing Cards

A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand.

http://www.pokertda.com/custom_posts/view-official-tda-rules/

A player did this in Ireland at the IPO, exposed his cards in exactly the same situation.  Ruling was the same, he could call, and then he was given a substantial penalty.  I think it might have been 20 minutes.

He was a drunk, arrogant, generally unpleasant arse and the whole table was happy to see him away from the table for a while.

Hey...

Well I still dont see how that helps the player he then makes the call against... as I said the guy who made the all in lost 80% of his chips... hey it was only a £30 tourney... but yeah imagine it was a big tourney... I just dont think a player should be able to deliberatly do this to gain a read... but just my opinion I guess :)

Thanks for all the input...

Funny things is I had a situation a while back... slightly different but my hand was called "dead" so I guess that's why I am tilting so much... Was in the later stages of a tournement, I wake up with pocket Aces in mid position... I raise to 1600 (blinds were 400/200) A guy on the button shoves in a huge amount of chips, which I take it to put me all in... I say "well I have to call" and shove my stack in, which was about 9800 in total... I flip over my aces... he immediatly calls for a ruling as he has only bet 9000 in total... the TD comes over and rules my hand dead, and returns my odd 800 chips... and the player takes down the pot... sucks to me hey !

The guy that got your hand killed is exactly the kind of angle-shooting pos I was referring to in my earlier post.

In my experiance people only show cards in this spot to show the table they have a genuine decision... or to make the table aware of the decision they are contemplating. It's not normally to get a read on an opponent. It really doesn't give you that much of an edge unless you are a serious 'live pro' and the opponent gives something away. The 'false check' thing would annoy me a lot more, as the player gets a clear edge (assuming it was definately deliberate), watching you check behind and then is able to lead following the ruling.

Recently i've noticed a lot more issues with rulings and errors being made. Seems largely down to the standard of dealers, which has definately dropped considerably in the time i've been playing (i've heard a lot of the experianced dealers make this point).

Steve,

You and I know each other, both on facbook and in livepoker... 

on the points in question -

1- In Luton get Raj or Dan Best on it! George is sometimes a bit of a pussy, but it is hard to fight the Reg's on this kind of thing!  You just have to be loud and outspoken enough!

2 - the hand should never be dead after just one hand of angle shooting, despite how blatent or monstrous it is! he should always be able to play the hand, and the guys in northampton (our local) rule hands dead way too often!


The guys in this thread are bang on imo.


jb.
seeya soon.


p.s. the tattenhoe kebab van is the mother-f*cking-nuts!

:D

Think you might find that Jason's donner van, Clifton Bristol is the mother- f*ckng-nuts !

Lol. Best name ever!!

Ha yeah, genius.

But surely your experience there shows just why hands should not be killed? Abs terrible ruling which only opens the door for angle shooters and does nothing to protect integrity of the game. If that were my card room you'd get no penalty and the other player would get a warning for angle shooting.


To bring up a related point...

"No aggressive action allowed."

Am I the only one who disagrees with this rule in every single instance someone suggests it? Really do not see the need.

Don't know that I am a pussy when it comes making a ruling, Mr. Black. I am pretty fair and transparent in all that I do and I don't think I am guilty of bending over to the regulars when it comes to enforcement of the rules.

It certainly wasn't me that dealt with these two issues.

With the first situation, it is a rather difficult situation if a TD is called to the table and you're told.. I thought this player had checked. If the dealer isn't in a position to clarify then it is really just a judgment call that goes one way or the other.

I have documented my thoughts on all the ridiculous ways people elect to 'check' and the unfortunate consequences of these alleged actions.

As for exposing your hand, it is not allowed at any point. That said if a player does, Grosvenor rules do not deem the hand to be dead. He will be penalised for it after the hand.

Mmmmmmmm - as they say there are always two sides to every 'story'     ......     so time for a Loofah Review of the 'dreaded' Incident No: 1  @ the Luton G!

A very rotund man - who we shall refer to henceforth as George Dawes Senior - is in a hand with a Luton Reg.

LR raises in the BB - whilst deep in conversation with Jim McBride - and GDS flats the bet.

Flop came down 7 high (no Queen on the board - maybe you were fantasising, young sir!).

LR still chatting to JM hears GDS announce check and says, "hold up, I haven't acted" - before the dealer can expose the turn card - and bets 700.

GDS then goes off into one    .....     rabidly moaning about angle shooting.

When the other players at the table asked if he was phuqqin serious - we were treated to a diatribe of the "card room being ruled by some sort of local committee."

LR said to red-faced - over excited – GDS, "Just get a ruling then."

TD (Nina) called, and it was confirmed by all that no "check" was announced - nor heard – and a very unhappy GDS was informed that mid air gesticulations of the arm did not constitute a ‘check’.

GDS continued to burble on, and on, and - in time honoured Luton Tradition – was invited to STFU.

For GDS’s information        ……      the LR had raised with 7 8 suited connectors, hit top pair, and wasn’t willing to give you a free card!

He also found your babblings about angle shooting rather absurd at level 2 of a ‘run of the mill’ midweek comp      …..    with less than 750 in the pot!

How do I know all this, Mr GDS?

I was the ‘nasty villain’ who pulled all those ‘strokes’ to take down that pot!

Next time you post     …..      please try to at least report an accurate account.

And maybe next time before you play live      …..     you should acquaint yourself with the rules – and etiquette – of the live game, then you might not have made yourself look like such a plonker!

FYI     ….      experienced players don’t take too kindly to such allegations!

Politeness personified       .....        phuqq knows how I haven't let rip!