blonde poker forum

PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players

BTN: $400.00
SB: $540.39
Hero (BB): $492.20
UTG: $680.54
MP: $400.00
CO: $507.20

SB posts SB $2.00, Hero posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has Kd Kc

fold, fold, CO raises to $12.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $36.00, CO raises to $78.00, Hero ........


Is 5 betting all in always the correct play here?

Can't see myself doing anything other than getting it in and being very happy about it.

Make it 165

defo at 4NL

And then what?

Well I'm not folding kk

This is ridiculous advice. Sorry but it is.

Yeh 125/call or shove.

Tbh Alex, although it is very close (given that stack sizes are a little over 100bbs) there is not quite enough wiggle room to make a leveraged 5bet. If stacks were deeper we could find an extra leverage point, but not here. So we are left with either jamming or flatting...


Yes it is the correct play. But it is not the only correct play. Despite a generally held belief amongst multi-tabling grinders that you can't flat 4bets and are shove or fold, theory says that we should have a flatting range IP when opponent makes a very small 4bet (and by 'very small' I mean a CIB or similar. I don't mean a standard small 4bet of just under a quarter of effective stacks). And this is even more so when we are slightly deeper than 100bbs.

You can do some work with pokerstove and a calculator and come up with a flatting range in these spots. It is important to look at stuff like this and have a grasp of your ranges, even though in game you will likely decide more on instinct. If you have access to Bluefire there was a very good video a few years back with Phil Galfond discussing flatting 4bets when ~100bbs deep.

BTW, just re-read this and it seems like I am advocating always flatting KK here. I am definitely not doing so... I would jam far more often than flatting.

flat or 5bai, i've experimented with the 5b click it back, can be good in some tiny % of situs where dynamics are perfect, but this is not one of those.

Like flat or shove.

Out of interest in general where are we going in 4bet pots on an A high flop when starting 100bb effective when we flat?

generally just folding, or if he goes for loke 32 cbet, flat and fold turn

I was interested to hear peoples view on flatting and facing an A on the flop.  At the moment I seem to be on the wrong side of variance when playing KK which is probably good news since this should mean that the good times are about to come!

FYP

A better way of thinking about things than your thinly veiled moan about how you keep losing with KK ;)

personally im getting it in pre, along with my mum and my car

im never putting in 20% of my stack pre to fold....

i often win with Kings.

luckbox....

I can sympathise completely, I have an awfull record with KK which has recently got worse. I have won 2 out of the last 10 with KK and I never slow play them. But like you I await the variance pendulum to swing the other way.
I thought it had last week when during a £500 live tournament I pushed all in on a flop of 3,4,7 and was snapped by 5,6 for the straight. I got runner runner 7's for the house.
At last I won with KK............ had them twice since and lost both.
They still look good pre flop though.

Wiiiiiii this.

Alot of these spots are CO not wanting to give up. Depends alot on stats etc. If he's 4balling fairly often, I like tank flatting. If hes got no/ridic small 4b%, then just shoving. Basically assess wether hes 4b'ing for value or as a steal, jam it in his eyeball or let him spazzzzz

Jamming like 80-90% here, flat sometimes, obv never folding ever ever ever. Slightly villain dependant, dynamics, game-flow etc and just to balance my range (but generally i'd flat BTN vs CO rather than BB vs CO as i'm hardly ever flatting a non-massive hand in this spot).

In 6 max I'm always getting it in with kings. Probably 5bet to 130-140 as poor players will still get it in with 1010 jj qq ak. Had this been full ring I'm probably min clicking it back and then folding to a shove. But that's a different question.

(http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/129209619067142367.jpg)

Thought I'd get a random comment like that. Just my opinion .

I wanted to check you were serious before i wrote up a post describing just how bad min 5b folding would be with kings...

homaging the world [ ]

In a vacuum a 5bet shove is the standard line IMO, not taking account the bigger picture or circumstances such as game flow, table dynamics, balancing ranges and the dynamic between yourself and the villain.

i'm interested in the difference in profitability as a percentage in terms of  balancing your range, extracting maximum value through playing a strong holding OOP with 100BB effective stacks as opposed to the standard line in this spot