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PokerStars Zoom Hand #78976306315:  Omaha Pot Limit ($0.25/$0.50) - 2012/04/16 21:14:29 WET [2012/04/16 16:14:29 ET]
Table 'Aquarius Dwarf' 6-max
Seat 1: Q8Holds ($92.40 in chips)
Seat 2: EvilWal ($56.27 in chips)
Seat 3: mrdublo ($14.96 in chips)
Seat 4: K4pt4h ($238.75 in chips)
Seat 5: DF9023119991 ($50 in chips)
Seat 6: Yoo4 ($91.15 in chips)
EvilWal: posts small blind $0.25
mrdublo: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Q8Holds [Ad 9h Qd Ks]
K4pt4h: raises $1 to $1.50
DF9023119991: folds
Yoo4: folds
Q8Holds: raises $2 to $3.50
EvilWal: folds
mrdublo: folds
K4pt4h: raises $7.75 to $11.25
Q8Holds: calls $7.75
*** FLOP *** [As 9d Kh]
K4pt4h: bets $17.76
Q8Holds: calls $17.76
*** TURN *** [As 9d Kh] [3s]
K4pt4h: bets $56.27
Q8Holds said, "rli?"
Q8Holds: folds
Uncalled bet ($56.27) returned to K4pt4h
K4pt4h collected $56.27 from pot
K4pt4h: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $58.77 | Rake $2.50
Board [As 9d Kh 3s]
Seat 1: Q8Holds folded on the Turn
Seat 2: EvilWal (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: mrdublo (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: K4pt4h collected ($56.27)
Seat 5: DF9023119991 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Yoo4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

i think calling pre is better than raising here

greek i have the best hand and postion surely =raise

the best hand is two aces.

the second best hand is two kings.

your hand is neither of these.

lol, a high % of the time i have the best hand

so?

so why not make pot bigger and make our opponent make mistakes

I haven't played Zoom yet so I'm not sure how the dynamics of this would work here.

I'm flatting, not 3betting preflop.  Our hand can flop well but can equally flop garbage and by 3betting you are allowing him to 4bet, inflate the pot and you can end up in nasty spots like this in huge pots without a clue which way to go.

If this was a normal PLO game I'm probably folding the turn here, may even fold the flop.  I say probably because we'd have an idea what this guy was like (of course this could easily turn into call flop, jam turn with the right history).  An average unknown player with any degree of PLO skill playing an unknown player always has a set of Kings+ here.

As it's zoom I'm jamming the turn, gone this far against an unknown guy, they're all action junkies so his air range, draw (the bad to okish wraps) range and bad value (he thinks he's ahead but he obviously isn't, this is found in Holdem players playing at PLO) range play OK against us.  This falls if someone can convince me people play Zoom tight and/or well.

Plus three pair is the nuts ;)

Folding the turn is out of the question imo, it has the potential to be a very big mistake whereas stacking off is completely stnd.

PLO really isn't a game where you can hero fold in 4bet pots readless without joke deep stacks, your mistake in this hand is calling the 4bet, he's opened UTG and 4bet you seriously need to just give that credit for ACES and move on, there is nothing at all wrong with 3b/folding the hand you have as it'll play nicely isolated vs a generic range that calls your 3bet.

I think I would also sway away from 3betitng in this specific spot (I think i'm way less against it than tommy and greeky tho) we're readless and he's opened UTG, we have one of the worst hands to flat a 4bet with and our hand has decent multi-way play-ability. Also, you don't have the best hand a high% of the time he's opened UTG remember so against a decent UTG opening range (assuming this guy is decent)  this hand actually plays very average, also inflating the pot to make our opponents make mistakes is a reversal if we then flat the 4bet.

However once we get to the turn, we're all in i'm afraid, and we can be drawing dead very feasibly.

also...


Idk what's so surprising about the pre-flop 4better going off on an ACE-HIGH board lol hand seems very standard from him with or without aces :)

I just deleted a post that I meant to modify instead. In that post I suggested that villain had taken a strange line. This is because I had not read the hh properly... I thought villain had flatted a 3bet then donked the Axx flop. Obviously since villain has actually 4bet there is nothing strange about his post flop play.

Blockers tho?

Blockers to what lol

Top set, middle set, bottom set?

As its a pretty vacuous spot I'm stacking off ott, I find it quite difficult to hit case cards, therefore so should he.

Am I being a full on Billy with this thought process?

Ooh, love that phrase - "a Billy".

Should be pronounced "Billlllly" though. I should know, I've been called it enough times.

 

You've looked at your hand pre-flop and liked it that much that you've called a 4-bet to 20+ big blinds.

The flop has come down and we've hit top two pairs with no made straight or flush draws on the board - and we've called a $17 bet to see another card. Now a 3s hits and is a total brick with regards to made draws either flush or straight. It does however give him back doors to any spade or a wheel draw -  if villain has AAA, KKK, 999 that doesn't really matter too much as we're behind anyway.

Opponent now sticks $50 in to a pot that we were happy to inflate to hit our, in your mind, premium hand - (and we hit top three pairs)

It's a tough spot and if it was my money I'd fold, but that's because I'm not rolled to do the thing and jam the turn and dodge all draws.

This sums it up very well for me...

lol no ofc not - yes you're right we do block all the sets, most importantly AAA which is the hand, if we're beat, we will most likely be like - important to remember though that we don't ACTUALLY block any of the sets we just reduce the combionatronic likelihood of our opponent having them, his line is EXTREMELY accurately representing AA, so the fact that we have an ACE in our hand is SLIGHTLY less relevant than you think, because he can very easily have the other 2 aces.

Stacking off OTT purely because we have an ace would be bad - there are loads of reasons why we should stack off on the turn, and we're going to get shown AAA quite a bit, hence why we shouldn't be 3bet/calling this hand pre-flop read-less, speshly in ZOOM (I've never played Zoom fwiw) but I imagine if it's anything like RUSH when it started is pretty nitty.

Guess it all comes down to how often people are 4b bluffing at this level. Obv with zoom I think you encounter different opponents each hand (?), which obv makes the need to 4b light much less.

But if he 4b's light (ie non AAxx/KKxx) MORE than the combinatronical probability of him having the other 2 Aces/Kings (which I think is a pretty good chance (has to be >0.042% right?) I think we obv have to shove.

The fact we have an Ace and King makes the probability of him bluffing higher is I guess what I'm trying to say, so this added to pot odds is my reason for getting it in.

Please if I'm wrong, tell me so! If villains showdown only AAxx 100% of the time here at this level then please flame away!

yes. this is all correct you should have said this instead of


you've not said anything that isn't reasonably accurate in the whole thread fwiw :)

I think as a general rule if facing a 4bet vs someone you know nothing about, assume it's AA** and you won't go far wrong, I myself seldom 4bet someone I have no history or knowledge of without AA in 6max games with 100+bb stacks.