blonde poker forum

We're 3handed, 200nl euros.

History: Villain and I have been battling all day 2-5handed across several tables, he is extremely aggressive playing 43/34/28. He 3b/5bs 100bbs with all pocket pairs, AT+ sometimes worse (a few orbits before this he 3b/5b J9o and lost to my AK).

At the start of the day, I adjusted to his high 3b % by 4betting wider for value and more often as a bluff. He was himself 4betting so much that I started 3b/5b small pairs, but he adjusted by 4b/calling AJ, 77 etc so at this point I've readjusted by 4b/calling wide and never 5b bluffing. I think he'd cottoned on to the fact that I wasn't 4bet folding anymore so perhaps this explains why he peeled in this hand.

Preflop: Hero is BB with   8c 8s
SCHLOMOGADEA raises to €6.00, WSOP2013 raises to €18.00, 1 fold, Hero raises to €40.00, 1 fold, WSOP2013 calls €22.00
 
Flop: (€87.00)   Td 9c 3c   (3 players) Hero bets €44.00, WSOP2013 calls €44.00
 
Turn: (€175.00)   Jc    (3 players) Hero checks, WSOP2013 bets €194.65 and is all-in, Hero?

In this hand I decide to 4b/call 88 vs him and was really surprised to see him peel, he had jammed every time I'd 4bet up until now (about 10 times total) so I don't really know what to put him on. I can't put him on 99-JJ and when he just flats the flop, I can't put him on a flush. Anyone come up with a range?

How do we play the turn optimally?

Would probably jam turn. No idea why though, seems terrible lol

I'd just fold pre. If I was going to 4bet I would 4bet bigger to induce jams, if he thinks ur not 4b folding much hel probably start peeling j9s etc and putting you in coffins post flop whilst when he does get it in pre you're probably dead / flipping. It's very very unlikely he gets 77 in here so 4betting 88 has to be quite bad I think.

How many hands do you have on him? A lot of people think they are in battles that they aren't and really they are just levelling and battling vs theirselves. Whilst its probably not right here it's something for others to think about. If a guy 4ber you 5 times in 500 hands but your HUD says he's 4bettibg 50% then it's very likely that you are just reading into a small sample size.

As played I'd just fold the turn, va his calling range were drawing really thin and we can't expect him to fold much better. Jc is about the nut worst turn card. As played fold now,

Have 550 hands on him, his 4b range is 15%, 3b/5b allin with 22, 33 and 77 before vs me, as well as AQ and AJ and AK and J9o. So we've got it in pre together about 8 times in those 550 hands.

I'm sure he's still getting it in with any pair and AJ+ so I think the 88 is a profitable 4b call.

Sorry to derail thread, but can i just ask how you have stats? do you type them/record in or is it just a guess?

I would sigh fold turn myself here but dont really play cash and defo not at this level when i do

I really doubt sonebody will 3bet utg and then 5b over a cold 4bet with 22-77 even really aggressive opponents would be more likely to not go so bananas here. Just because he's 3b5b vs you in certain spot doesn't mean he's going I explode and wager his mortgage here.

I know it's really annoying when you know something and how game dynamics are and sonebody comes and tells you that you're wrong so if you just KNOW then sorry etc

If you do want to induce and think he has 22-77 then I think 52-56 is best pre.

You can just do a quick Pokerstove on his range pre to see of you think it's profitable I guess and just give him half the combos of the small Laura or something.

Holdem manager mate

LOL cheers Alex my bad, i assumed was live

Think i need to sleep :)

We're 3handed remember pads, so utg=btn :D

Appreciate what your saying though

He's allin on the turn btw

As a preliminary aside, 4bet range takes several thousand hands to converge. I'd ignore this stat as you have only 550 hands on villain.

Villain sounds like he is pretty competent preflop, able to adjust to your play and also to your adjustments. Perhaps a bit spewy, but there are worse faults to have in aggressive short-handed online games. Plus there is a fine line between spew and well-planned aggression. If you want to battle this reg I would advise you to seek your edges postflop rather than preflop. Start flatting him a lot more in position rather than 3betting him. Don't let him play the 3bet-4bet-5bet game with you; force him to play postflop.

So construct a much tighter and highly polarised 3bet range preflop, rather than the depolarised extended value range that you have right now. You will get short-term fringe benefits from this sudden and significant preflop gear change, because villain will assume you are constructing your 3betting range much differently, and will thus make mistakes against you until he re-adjusts. But the main purpose is not to temporarily trick him, it is to force postflop play on your opponent because he has proved himself competent preflop.

This is an alternative way to combat a highly aggressive opponent than to continually extend and re-extend your preflop value ranges to the point where eventually you are both fist-pump getting it in pre with A4o or whatever. That way lies thin edges at best. And likely madness too.

None of the above is relevant to the hand in question of course so a few quick words on that. First, 4bet/calling 88 here can never be terrible, given the reads and dynamics that you have given. The key here is that villain will be jamming all his small pairs (according to your read), and if this was not the case then 4bet/calling 88 is much less appealing. Like Pleno said though, I would consider 4betting to a larger size to prevent villain having the option of flatting IP. Since you have decided not to have a 4bet/fold range (and villain may have picked up on this) there is nothing wrong with making a larger 4bet, even though this appears donkish at first glance. Remember, the point of the very small 4bet is to be able to have a 4bet/folding range. Do keep in mind however that there is a huge difference in perceived ranges between a 'normal' 4bet and a cold 4bet, and this might effect his 5betting range substantially... but I am not going to argue with your in-game feel/instinct of how you feel he is likely to respond.

Postflop... it's a really uncomfortable spot because we have no idea of his range for getting to the turn. I actually like jamming the turn, since we have equity against most of his calling range and might fold out hands that have equity against us (even occasionally including some that currently beat us). It is sort of a semi-bluff, and sort of a merge. Which is fine given the bloated pot and the woolly nature of the ranges. The small SPR covers a multitude of sins, and the maths rewards aggression and is quite forgiving provided you have some fold equity combined with some equity when called. 88 is pretty much the top of your range for check-folding the turn, so it makes at least some sense to turn it into a bluff - especially as it has equity and some blocker effect. Obviously this is potentially highly spewy, but you've sort of set up that dynamic haven't you?

Check/shove flop? Gets a bet from his air and best way to get chips in, plus he is nearly committed with overs etc

Thanks guys, any ideas on what he can have when he shoves the turn?

Assortment of Broadways with a club, queen 9 maybe, some ten x stuff. I guess he would jam everything he has here, apart from flushes. He would prob shove draws on the flop, so I'm guessing, although never analysed a hand like this

very nice points :)up

I have a friend who plays HS nlhe and was telling me recently he's been experimenting me a 0% 3b+ strategy, it's by no means optimal but his reasons for doing it are that in his words "everyone's a sicko preflop these days, so I'm trying to get to the turn"

He has kq about 98% of the time here

Sick post Stu, really sick.

Agree with most of stus post.

Only thing I disagree with is how flvillain reacts to cold 4bers rather than normal 4ets which I think he will react almost identically to, perhaps even more aggro to the cold 4bet.

Also agree with mondeoman that e probably has a really butted range ott, people are really stupid and of they have ac and pair they bet 132 and call but when they are butted they jam.

He shouldn't. And he appears to be competent preflop, so I'd imagine that he wouldn't. But it's not a big deal ofc.


Is this a population read on 200NL players? I don't agree with it, but again no biggy. There is no other meaningful bet size but a jam surely? Although I get the point that some villains might bet almost all-in rather than jamming with their weak hands or draws because they think it somehow looks stronger.


Thanks Jamie.

He's by no means competent preflop. Way way way too spewy, it was so easy to play against him - just lose a few bbs whilst waiting for a  decent pair, AJ+ and then he just takes off. Got it in so many times vs him when he just went crazy with Ax, J9, 66, 33 etc.

It depends on how you define competent. You wrote a really good description of the dynamic between the two of you:


I think this suggests that villain is somewhat competent. He is making adjustments to your play, and then adjusting further to your adjustments. This is extremely rare in poor players, and is usually a sign that an opponent is actually thinking about his lines. Now you may believe that he is not always reaching the right conclusions with his thoughts, that he is overly spewy etc. And you may well be right. But we are none of us superstars. Perhaps he sees you in the same sort of way; as an opponent who is getting out of line, 3betting/4betting too frequently. He might feel that some of the hands in which he jammed light and you called and won were actually coolers given the dynamic between the two of you. And he might even be right in this.

When you get involved in highly aggressive preflop battles it is really difficult to work out the difference between correctly applied aggression and spew. And often there is actually not a great deal of difference. For example, the maths of 5bet jamming a rag Ace 100bbs deep is surprisingly forgiving in aggressive dynamics. You don't need a huge amount of fold equity given that you have ~30% pot equity when called (do the maths if you haven't already, it is super simple). You probably know all this of course. I am mentioning it just to make the point that whilst you may very well be right about this opponent (and I am not arguing with your judgement), there is always a reasonable chance that you have under-estimated his level of skill and over-estimated his level of spewiness.

Obviously no-one can judge better than you where the truth lies since you are the one present in the moment and thus are able to feel the minutiae of gameflow. But just remember that it is always easy to be fooled in these sort of spots, so you really do need to play devil's advocate with yourself and constantly run sanity checks. Perhaps you have just been 'lucky' to have more than your fair share of decent hands when he has chosen to 5bet jam on you? And so his jams seem spewy because they don't get through as often as they 'should'. I am not saying this is the case obviously... well, you know what I am saying I hope.

It is hard to properly appreciate gameflow/dynamics unless present in the moment. However, when present in the moment it is often equally difficult to take a truly objective and non-results orientated view of a situation.

REALLY good post. Couldn't disagree with a word of it. Thanks.

You are welcome Alex, and thanks for the nice compliment.

I'd like to mention the reverse situation, partly for the sake of completeness and partly to make a point about the poker mindset.

If you regularly get involved in aggressive battles with regs you will often find yourself in situations where things seem to go the other way. Every time you 3bet light he seems to 4bet, forcing you to fold. Every time you 4bet bluff, he 5bet jams. And of course whenever you have a value hand he never gives you action. It feels like you are getting outplayed, getting run over. And then, of course, when you decide to 5bet jam on him with the A5s or the 44 he turns up with the AJ or the TT.

It is at these times when it is essential to be able to take a truly objective view of the situation. Sometimes you really are being outplayed and outmanoeuvred and you need to either sharpen up or get out of the spot you are in. Other times, you are just at the wrong end of variance and are being coolered. Sometimes you are spewing your tits off, other times you are being appropriately aggressive but just keep running into the top of ranges.

The thing is... it is super difficult to work out which is which when losing. And to some extent even more difficult when winning. Hubris makes you want to believe that you are just getting unlucky when you are actually getting run-over or outplayed. Hubris also makes you want to believe you are outplaying an opponent when actually you are just running well against him. We are all ego driven, and all secretly think we are better than we actually are.

The trick is to have a defense against hubris. When you are winning in a game, keep reminding yourself that most likely at least some of this is down to run good, and it is not all down to your amazing poker skills. When you are losing, use this as a motivator to sharpen up your play rather than just attributing it all to bad luck.

A logical extension of this is that you should try to give your opponents more respect than they perhaps deserve. It is so easy just to think "He is terrible, I have a massive edge on him". Sometimes this will be right, but it's not like your edge is increased by thinking this way. Yet when you are wrong, and your opponent is not quite as bad as you think he is, you run the risk that complacency and ego will turn a positive expected edge into a negative one.

Stu dropping some serious wisdom bombs itt

Does all this happen on 3rd or 4th street Stu?

one of my favourite ever PHA posts.