blonde poker forum

I've heard a lot of people talk about it and somebody recently posted a thread which referred to it. Could anybody give me some sort of in depth insight please?

Its a load of bollocks.

Basically it goes.

1) My cards
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps general thoughts on me
4) My cards, opps range, opps thought on my range

Its just something people say to give a clearer idea of where others play. However, this isn't the case, some weaker players have holes in their thought process, others just like calling. it is impossible to assign yourself a level.

As someone who has claimed to be on ridiculous levels in the past... the MASSIVE MAJORITY of all players non pro/ non full time are ALL level 1.. with the occasional thought toward level 2.


its only when u get to hu vs a competent opponent that will genuinely think on level 2+...


god knows where ivey sits...

I thought it went: -

1) My cards
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards
4) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards + what my opps thinks I think their range is

My way of looking at it

1. My Cards
2. My Cards + ops Cards
3. What op thinks I have

And if cant get any of that lean over take a sip of my pint and stick it all in and hope Lol

You have all forgotten number 5, which is WWPD





What would Pleno do.

You can see what level Ivey is on with the hand against Paul Jackson. Pretty incredible stuff when you accept the fact it's not just cock waving.

The thing that tilts me is when guys do a tr and it starts out :
Start of comp  "my table is ridiculously soft full of level 1 thinkers and I am bossing them from the off"

First break "chipping up nicely value betting my hands perfectly and getting paid"

Level 4 " sorry guys gone. Lost a flip, thought I could get the fish to fold pre.  I run so bad but pleased with how I play"

Is that a direct quote from one of my tr's??

Wording seems familiar............

Lol no not specifically you, I loved the insane edge stuff. More and more people are using "ridic soft field/bust" route. You never hear em do a win and say how soft the field was.

1) My cards
1.5) My cards+whether my opponent is prone to bluffing/getting out of line
2) my cards + my opponents cards
3) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards
4) my cards + opps range + opps thoughts on my cards + what my opps thinks I think their range is

Would say about 95 percent of players are in 1.5 plus. They may not be identifying your range but it's just really natural for people to try to define what kind of person you are from fairly scant information, and really natural to rebel against attempts to be pushed around too.
Sit down heads up on any level and raise 30% more pre than the norm, and show me a player who hasn't adjusted somewhat to you within 15 hands. They may not have formally identified your range but they have a broad idea of where they thing you're at, and probably a bit of what you think of them too.

I always thought it was:

I know
I know that you know
I know that you know that I know
I know that you know that I know that you know
I know that you know that I know that you know that I know
etc

without wanting to take anything away from Ivey, that's barely a "level 3" hand imo, they are both playing "lets rep absolutely nothing" but obviously HU for a milly it's pretty boss, I think it's way cooler if Ivey has KQ and call/calls after the flop however many bets it is.

these levels business is very misleading, because everyone, no matter how good at cards you are is capable of some really good plays, I'm going to say by accident for simplicity but it isn't an accident, it's a level of un-concious knowledge that a player has learnt without really knowing that they've learnt it. You will often see a percieved weaker recreational player on a table, offering post-hand analysis and explaining a concept that is actually quite advanced, allbeit simply, what this is is that there enthusiasm for the game and enjoyment of it has forced their brain to soak some information up and then to apply it - this is the first step of improving basically.

As you start to improve, or "level up" as it were there are basic "levels" which Jared Trendler talks about in his book, these "levels" are

Unconscious Incompetence - You don't know what you don't know, complete beginner.
Conscious Incompetence - You've become conscious of what you don't know, you begin to understand where and how you need to improve.
Conscious Competence - After countless hours of study you become skilled/have had enough experience to gain skill. You need to think about what you've learned...otherwise you return to being incompetent.
Unconscious Competence - At this level you've learned something so well that it is now totally automatic and requires no thinking. In poker this could be anything from folding 23o utg to understanding why someone is exploitable when they open x amount of hands and cbet y board with z frequency. In the book he refers to this as "The Holy Grail of Learning".

Everyone is capable of anything at a poker table, so you need to respect your opponents all the time - giving people a little too much credit, speshly live, will always be better than under-estimating them.

That's a twist on how the four stages thing was expressed back in my early sales training days.

Unconscious Competence was the third level where you begin to succeed without truly understanding why.
Conscious Competence is the nirvana stage where you have total understanding of where you are and what needs to be done to achieve your aim.

I think that makes more sense tbh, david's post.

Still both admirably make the point that specific levels don't really exist - golf for example, Tiger isn't even in the top 100 in the world at driving yet is still the best player by a country mile, so if you had no clue and watched him drive you'd assume if you were of a decent proffessional stnd he was maybe a bit budget.

Talking of next level thinkers I saw quad jacks chat with Sam Grafton. When can we expect to see you doing this stuff

That's an interesting view, as it's something I know I do - but probably too much so it's to a fault (imo).

Most people on here (I'm talking about the good players) seem to do the opposite as a default position though, or at least that's the way it comes over.  Or am I wrong?

the key really is what level your opponent thinks on and what you think your opponent thinks you think on.

Any higher levels of thinking should be saved for people who have history between each other then it can be left to leveling and becomes a hole different ball game!

The greater your facility for heading to the deeper levels, the more prone you'll be to yawn at this picture. Cool huh

Coming late to this thread to offer my 2 cents. Obviously Dave is spot on, when is he ever not. It's hard to define what level you think at, even if you're very conscious of your own abilities. Even harder to define the level of thinking of a recreational player, simply because they might be out of the loop a little bit. When I was a dealer, I remember one of the nicer fish saying to me "have you ever called to bluff? Like, called a bet on the flop and sometimes on the turn and then fire it in when they get scared on the river?" Of course, to an intermediate player or a passionate amateur, he's just described "floating," arguably what would be defined as a level 3 play. But the same guy used to go broke with AJ preflop all the time because he just didn't realise it's a rubbish hand.

Any of the "i know that he knows," or "what he thinks i think he has," stuff defines a level. Every time you say "know," or more accurately "think," you are adding a level, potentially infinitely, but usually only up to 4 or 5. The problem a lot of intermediate players struggle with, especially against ABC players is "levelling." Ideally you want to be thinking on the level above your opponent. If all they're thinking about is their own cards, then all you need to know is what they're likely to have and you can play the hand perfectly. If they're thinking about your cards as well, then we need to be thinking about what our hand looks like to them, etc. Levelling occurs when they're thinking on level 1, and you're thinking on level 3. Villain only cares about his cards, but you for some reason care about credibly representing a hand. Or you might hero call in a spot where you're miles ahead of your range and he could be betting a missed draw, but all villain knows is that he has a pair.

Conclusively, even if you're a supercomputer and you're capable of thinking on level 128, against most recreational players you'll be on level 2 using some level 3 elements.

Can't really remember what my point was, but that was fun to write.

I often call on the river to bluff. That's really high level stuff.