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Thought I'd start a thread for athletics at the Olympics and for the run up to it.

Why not start it off with this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18649280

Still have Bolt as the big favourite obviously, but amazing how Jamaica keep producing incredibly fast sprinters. World Record for their 4x100m team wouldn't be a surprise!

The London 100m will be incredible. Bolt, Blake, Powell, Gatlin, Gay & Bledman are all bang in incredible form, and I think any of those six could win, including Powell, if Gay's hip stands up. Gatlin & Gay both looked so good in the US trials last week and Bledman in the TT trials. Thompson not so much. I'd have Bolt as a slight favourite.

The Jamaican trials are something else - Carter, Frater, etc can't even get into the team. Seven sub-10 runners in the final, I think. I don't think the result is such a huge shock as they are making out and wouldn't be surprised if the 200m finished the same 1-2.

Would be horrible if the cheat Gatlin wins. Here's hoping we see a Jamaican 1-2-3, with all three breaking the world record.

Talking of cheats, it mentions in that article that Chambers' qualifying time from the GB trials wouldn't have been fast enough to get him into the semi finals at the last Olympics. Not that he was there, as he was banned for cheating of course. I hope GB don't include him in the relay team.

I'm less inclined to doubt Bolt because of his unique physique, but when one country, and a small relatively poor one at that, produces a treadmill of world class sprinters I do start to get slightly suspicious.  ;carlocitrone;

Why are the Kenyans and Ethiopians so dominant in the long-distance events? Why are the British so strong in cycling and sailing? Why were Australia once so very dominant across a whole range of Olympic events?

Kenyans and Ethiopians have the benefit of living at altitude and that genetic advantage, Brits $$$$, Aus dunno.

Let me turn the Q around, why do u think they are better bearing in mind, small island, limited resources etc?

Jamaicans do have a genetic advantge though.  Almost all of the best sprinters of the past 30-40 years have been of either Caribbean or west African (which is where the slaves in the Caribbean came from) extraction.  This is somethign to do with the higher proportion of fast twitch muscles.  The fastest people in Jamaica inevitably become sprinters where as in the States they may become football running backs or wide receivers as well hence not as many talents coming through as a proportion of the population....there are more opportunities.  If the Jamaicans were doping how do we explain how well Trinidad does in sprinting or even sprinters like Kim Collins from St Kitts or Daniel Bailey from Antigua both islands of 70k people?  I am currently in Jamaica and the idea that there is no money in the sport here isn't true.  Every single big company here is involved in the sponsorship of athletics and those that make it ar emaking very good money.  You can't go more than 50 yards without seeing a billboard with Bolt, Blake, Powell, Fraser etc on it.

I would just expect the top sprinters to come from more other places too with the same west african genes, not mostly Jamaica.

New Zealand has a relatively small population but nobody can touch them at rugby. A big national sport in a small country will draw all the talent to it, lots of role models and world class coaching from an early age makes a difference.

I expect the Jamaican cricket team to destroy us the next time we play them then  :D

If we exclude West Africa itself which has produced more than its fair share of decent sprinters but assume infrastructure is a real problem there then of those that have run under ten seconds this year.  5 are from Jamaica (pop 3m), 2 are from Trinidad (pop -1m of which about a third are of Indian extraction) and 8 are from the USA (pop -313m of which 12% are black).  It seems pretty much completely along the lines you would expect given not all American blacks of of West African and the other opportunities available to to them.  If you look further to those that have run 10.10 and under then you get a Kittian, an Antiguan, a Bahamian, a Brit (of west African descent), French (of west African descent), a South African and  a Jap.  presumably the Jap likes reggae or something.  

Why aren't there many top class long-distance runners from Jamaica? Or let's take it to the next level, why aren't known for top class boxers, footballers, darts players, etc?

Also why aren't there top class sprinters from East Africa, top footballers from India, or downhill skiers from Norfolk?

I'm the one asking the questions around here sonny boy  ;angel;

On a totally unrelated point Dan..

I see you call Gatlin and Chembers "cheats" and (putting words in your mouth) assume you don't think they should be allowed to compete..

Do you think outed cheats in poker .. Bonomo, Fields, Mizzi etc should be banned from playing poker?

Can't stop them playing poker, but they could be barred from playing in some comps, by some sites, etc.

I fully backed GB's stance of wanting to ban drug cheats from the Olympics for life. Representing GB in the Olympics is a privilege, not a right. Ask our top-ranked tae kwon do guy...

Oh and ask the others who were part of the medal-winning relay team who had their medals taken away from them if Chambers should be allowed to compete for GB in the Olympics.

Bailey, Johnson & Christie were all Jamaicans. Christie left as a child and the other two as teenagers. All three won the Olympic 100m competing for other countries, so many there is something genetic to it.

Two of those were drug cheats, and of course there's something genetic in it - but all top sprinters are genetically 'blessed' to be sprinters. There's more than that needed to be a champion.

If Bolt was American, he might well be playing American Football now. If he was English, he could well have become a footballer. In Jamaica, young athletes with potential are generally guided down the path to be sprinters. Not the case in most other countries.

It should be the right of the world number one to participate in the Olympics thou. Politics should play no part in sport.

Also I'm glad Chambers will get to compete.

Do we believe there are (m)any top sprinters who haven't used stuff? Judging by the number who have been caught, it must be rampant throughout. Repeatedly calling out those caught suggests, probably unjustifiably, pureness in those lucky enough not to be caught.

Am I going nuts or weren't there several positive tests for a few Jamaican sprinters a couple of years back at a games? A bunch of them got sent home I think, no?

Has it been demonstrated how much taking drugs can add to your performance?

Ben Johnson would still have been bloody fast without drugs I assume.

The best should compete, not the best cheats.

Chambers won't be competing either, he'll have a good view of the backsides of some Jamaicans though.

Yes, some Jamaicans banned for drug use, and some yanks, and Chambers from GB.  Doesn't mean all runners from those countries are cheats.

Well when a bunch from one country/training group get caught at the same time you have to admit its very suspicious!

I think it's difficult (probably impossible) to determine the benefit to an individual athlete, as there's no control to compare against (obviously). The ability to train harder, recover from injury quicker, etc., gives improved performance on the day - but for someone to say it gives them an extra tenth of a second or whatever would probably be a guess at best. I guess when the difference between first and fourth can be hundredths of a second, some will do anything to get that edge.

It's not usually down to the country they're from, more to do with the training camp they're part of, or them being managed by the same people.

Isn't that what I said?  :dontask:

I was referring to your earlier post where you said you were suspicious of Jamaica's success in sprinting.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BALCO_Scandal

That's the bloke behind the drugs Chambers took.

Totally clean Chambers' PB was 9.97. After one year of taking drugs and training hard at age 25 his PB was 9.87. Training hard in that year without the drugs he prob gets close to that time anyways.

Agreed, he might well have managed that pb as a clean athlete. Unfortunately, we'll never know.

Well I am. But I doubt you find it surprising that a training group in Jamaica is made up of mostly Jamaicans   :P

7 of the 8 fastest 100m runners in history are currently active. 1 of the 7 is currently serving a drugs ban and will miss the Games. Another has just come back from his ban. Do we really think all the others are clean? They are all at it. It is a case of accepting that or finding another sport to follow.

My view is that there is a reasonable chance some of them are. I don't share this blind faith that some seem to have that they are clean.

Although I have argued the other side to a degree here I think this is probably the right view.  The idea that they are all clean is probably a bit over optimistic but I think if they were the geographical range of the best competitors would be the same if that makes sense.  I don't think, for example, that the Japanese lad would all of a sudden become a world beater.

It wouldn't surprise me if China produced some top class sprinters in the near future. They have enough people to select from and with state backing a focus in that area could produce world class sprinters. They already have one of the best 110m hurdlers.

As for whether most of the competitors are clean or not, unfortunately I think a lot more are dirty, but are getting away with it. Imagine how gutted we'd be if Bolt was found to be cheating? Just got to hope that the ones challenging for medals all come through without any positive tests and that Gatlin isn't one of the medal winners.

Question:  Which athletic events do the women have a better world record than the men's record?  There's one I know of...

Archery is the only Olympic sport I know of.

Fucks sake, why didn't you post that when I first posted, would have saved us both time.  :)

The pharmacologists stay ahead of the testers by inventing new steroids not on the banned list. So an athlete returning a negative test doesn't prove they are clean. The officials can only test for what they know about. So even a decade ago many athletes including Chambers were taking this newly created designer THG steroid which simply couldn't be detected. It wasn't on the banned list because nobody knew about it. Chambers tested negative every time during his spell taking the steroid. It was only when a disgruntled party sent a sample to the authorities did they find out about it and could actually test for it. Who knows what's out there in 2012.

Lots of sprinters might be dirty, but I don't think Jamaican athletes are 'dirtier' than any others which was what you were implying.

I think they may well be, but cba arguing about it.

Based on nothing other than they're successful and from Jamaica?

Simple logic must tell you they are dirty. Sad state of affairs.

Why?  What is that logic?

Comparison with America

Population numbers to succesful athletes
Training expertise
Infrastructure of the system


Its just not plausible that a small island can in the space of a few years suddenly come to practically dominante the world of sprinting when up against countries with more resources and bigger populations.

and yes i know they have always had some well performing athletes but they are filling the podium all the time for multiple events male and female.

I want to believe but i don't.

Didnt we already cover that off above?   what are your counter arguments?

probably. teach me to comment after reading only the last couple of posts.

Bolt withdraws from race on July 20th.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18723710

Was a programme on last night on C4 hosted by Michael Johnson touching on this subject. Not watched it yet, but it's been recorded. Just if anyone's interested in catching it online.

I watched it last night.  It was an interesting program.  Quite a few theories as to why your average jamaican is quicker than your average human, none of which involved drugs.  Won't do any spoilers until you confirm you have watched it.

FWIW our two most recent world beating fast boys (Christie and Jackson) both have Jamaican routes. 

Watched a bit before I came out tonight, and looks interesting. But I hope the investigation doesn't just follow their initial hypothesis and disregard any counter evidence as some of these documentaries tend to do.

Of course it's interesting what sets the group of top sprinters apart from the rest, but what's more interesting is what sets the absolute best apart from those just behind them.

Discus.

Sandy

Hmmmmm. There is a degree of happenstance to it. If Bolt didn't exist, we would have been asking what it was that set Gay apart from those just behind. If he had gone into American Football, we would have been asking what it was about Powell that set him apart from the rest. If there was no Bolt we would now be asking what it is about Blake that sets him apart from the rest. Maybe there is someone, or more than one, playing US Football who would have creamed the lot of them.

What I'm saying is that genetic differences between top sprinters and the rest of us might lie with genes such as ACTN3 (amongst others), but that's something they all have.

In a sport where hundredths of a second come into play, it's the minute gains that are the most important thing and most interesting (to me anyway).

This is a great point. I'm fairly sure the liks of Lance Armstrong was competing against masses of other drugs cheats in his golden era. Was he not still incred?

He just took more drugs than the others ldo.

It was just a poor attempt at a joke, never been interested in cycling other than the Olympics so wouldn't have a clue.

Just watched it. Enjoyable programme, and without the bias I was expecting. Good to see it ask more questions than it attempted to answer (without the studies or evidence to back them up). Intelligent piece of programme making.

Gutted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18842591

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61573000/jpg/_61573522_vlasic_getty.jpg)

Really surprised at the announcement that all medal-winners will be drug-tested. I thought they already were.

9pm tonight on BBC Three "Can Anyone Beat Bolt?".

Doubt it

(http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww48/geo_album/bolt.jpg)

Geo

Bolt quoted at 8/11 by the urban cookies, not quite a lock and Blake must fancy his chances!

Great programme.  Worth watching on iplayer if you get a chance. 

(repeated again on telly as well:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01l2104 )

(in other news, a programme on BBC and HD now about Vicky Pendleton - so worth watching :))

Brilliant documentary on Victoria Pendleton + British Cycling team tonight. Inspirational

Truly inspirational. I was amazed at how fragile emotionally she is. The opposite to how you perceive a world class sportwoman to be. It was a real insight into how coaches are so important to athletes.

It really was good! so loving all the Olympic shows on TV atm, other ones I enjoyed was the BBC 4 top Olympic moments and the real story off 'Chariots of Fire' film. Its currently on the ITV player.

Thought it was really enlightening seeing her comments about always racing for someone else - her dad, her coaches, her teammates - in what is an individual, gladiatoral discipline. It's really surprising that someone so flaky emotionally would succeed in that.

There's probably a better documenatry to be made purely about her and Anna Meares and their rivalry and is was a shame there wasn't much of Anna in this.

I'm hoping there will be some great documentaries to come out of London 2012. There are so many talented UK film makers, but not sure if they have been given access.

Best sports documentary I've ever watched.

Absolutely compelling.

Shane Sutton cam across as a thoroughly dislikeable man.

I really want her to win gold now, but even more I hope she finds happiness after the Olympics are over.

Just watched this now.  Very good although best sports documentary ever is a pretty crowded field.  Definitely want her to win more than ever but also think she has a tough task.

Hoop Dreams one of best surely?

aint that college basketball? abs lllloove it, have it on video at parents.

Remember that, was godd

"When we were kings" is so good.  Could watch it over and over, can't say the same for Pendletons. 

Did anyone see "Once Brothers"?

Pretty moving stuff.

I could watch Vicky all over.

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kKBJsWXFoc

That was easy enough

Tickets safely obtained.

Can't remember looking forward to a sports event more.

gogogogogo!!

Just watched this now, vv good, gl her.