blonde poker forum

Pretty interesting/awkward hand in GUKPT main on saturday.

playing 150/300/25

Villian 1 : 25k to start hand. Very good player have alot of history vs him online. Opening a reasonable amount of pots nothing crazy.

Villian 2 : 12k to start hand. Very passive/tight rec player it seems. Folded A8 earlier to my triple barrel on AQ98x. Playing 14/10/2 or something at a rough guess. Seeing alot of flops. Doesn't seem too bad though.

Villian 3 : 17k to start  hand Chris Dowling double UKIPT Final Tablist, never played with him before today but seemed to be playing well. Opening alot 3betting a dec amount playing well post.

Me : 25k to start hand. Have been opening a lot from mid-late pos and peeling alot IP. Havent 3bet once I don't think yet.

Ok so the hand,

150/300/25

V1 : opens to 600 UTG
V2 : calls UTG +1
V3 : 3bets to 1525 in the CO
Me : I look down at  Ahrt 6s  on the button and cold 4 to 3500, my image isn't crazy and I think its a really good spot to try and win the 3300-3500 in the middle, looks pretty strong imo especially as i havent 3bet once and i have A blocker init.

V1 sighs and folds, V2 snap folds

V3 looks at me a few times, and flats after about 30-45 seconds. (didn't really expect to get flatted and not really sure what sorta range to give him) thought he might have a big hand (AA/KK) or some suited connector type hand KQs AQs JTs 89s etc, (had seen him get to showdown after 3 betting twice with suited connectors) Also don't think he ever has JJ-QQ/AK (assume he flats TT pre for sure if not these 3 hands) because he 6bet shoved AK vs a pretty tight guy for like 20k eff at 100/200/25

Pot (8900) effective stack (villian) is about 13-13.5k

Flop :  8d 6d  5s

Villian 3 checks to me.

We?

This is a slight derail and I apologise for this..

I have noticed in the last year or so that there has been a trend for cold 4 bets to be smaller than I would feel happy making.

Here you are laying him around 5/2, while with his stack size calling is questionable, if he had another 8k, it would be nearly automatic imo.

I have seen 4 bets from good players laying the opponent as big as 7/2.

I rarely lay bigger than 2/1. Why is this wrong?

If someone could explain the logic behind this trend, or point the way to an a decent article explaining it, I would appreciate it.

Because you're in position and generally people will 5b or fold, of they peel oop then gl to them.

As played here I'd bet around 650-800 and evaluate on turn. I've Ben experimenting with it recently and although it gets you into some difficult spots I think it induces some really random spew from the weaker part of villains range. We can also triple qx kx, turn 2 pair/trips and protect from all his Broadway's otf.

i think cold 4betting here is ok, but i prefer a hand that flops better than this.

otf i think we should bet 1700-2k, that will cost him a decent portion of his remainig chips to continue, we can protect our hand if we have the best of it making our life pretty easy, i feel he is more likely to shove/fold than check call any hand on this texture so we can play pretty perfectly vs him when we put him to somewhat of a decision with a normal sized bet.

(bolded part) Yeah pretty much this. Cold 4 was actually too big imo.

(unbolded part) But how many seconds would you wait before betting? 14? 19? Also this bet is pretty much the same as checking except it costs us a free card when our opponent raises. The extra information we got relative to checking is..... our opponent was trying a checkraise. OK good, now what?

Option to make 4bet larger to dissuade peels and make it more of a 5b/f spot for him?

4.3k, as you haven't 3 or 4 before this. Needs to work ~60% of time to show a profit.

Otherwise 3k is more or less same as 3.5

Spewy 3 bet vs someone who is solid, id fold here. unless you think you have a good edge postflop dont really see the point 3 betting with a rubbish ace.

As played bet/fold 4.1k

I feel like my OP was very informative. I agree this wouldnt be the best spot to 3bet, but still not bad. This is a cold 4bet though and i think its a very good spot to do it personally.

@James, yea my online sizing would be a little smaller normally. I made it a little bigger just because its live etc, im fine with my sizing here tbh.

@ Keith, "Because you're in position and generally people will 5b or fold, of they peel oop then gl to them."

What pleno said here is spot on. No matter the price, it'll be almost always be bad for villain to peel here oop. So we don't expect good players to ever peel - either 5bet or fold - so we waste less chips when we're bluffing by 4betting smaller.

Thoughts on whether we can have any checking range at all in this spot on this texture with the PSR we have?

I'd rather have k2 suited that A6o here (but only cos its live and ppl lolpeel when they shouldn't - esp Dowling because I've seen UKIPT footage...) but can understand that the spot is cool for a cold 4 and it's not so much about our hand and an Ace blocker is quite handy...

But yeh, always prefer a hand that flops better. Ideally a big pair or AK :D

I'm betting like 1/4 pot here. We'd never check back AA/KK or our total non showdown airballs so I think for balance and vs a good hand reader (which I think Chris is) we should bet our entire range on this flop.

Pleno's size is too small for me, and would never bet more that 40% pot with anything so 1/4 pot is my prefered sizing.

Yeah i felt the same, plus wouldn't want to induce anything here.

Disagree that its a good but not great spot for a cold 4. I think its pretty close to the nut spot for it because its a spot where V3 can obv be pretty light expecting to never get 4b by V2 and will win the pot post most of the time V2 peels and V1 is FOS a lot but very few people put in the 4b from UTG (way less than they should imo) so this all adds up to a pretty nutsy spot for V3 to squeeze and people are generally gunna play pretty straightforward vs this 4b. If he's sitting there with the 95hh it'll for sure cross his mind to 5b but he can't 5b/fold and after a few moments of pondering will convince himself that its a live 1k so he'll find better spots, sigh give it up.

These sort of wtf plays in my experience tend to be either (a) retarded or (b) nutted and since from what he know the guy is competent/good then he probably just has AA/KK. fwiw I think if he did have those hands then he's going to peel them almost always with these stacks, so I would just check and try to source some riot gear in case you turn a 6.

I find myself here way less than most people but i'm kinda feeling a flop chk.

U can deffinatly take AA/KK/QQ out of his range as its live.

4 bet sizing is maybe slightly on the large side but not too bad.. As played bet like ~2k and reassess.. Although I feel you'll have to fire 2 / maybe 3 bullets here.

Gl on almost 80pc of turns which are deece for his range and when we check flop  we 'always have ak' relatively we basically do anyway. And when live players see something like this especially dowling frOm what I've seen they can go bonkers. Fwiw that's why checking back aa can be good of we genuinely expect him to peel suited Broadway's etc pre.

Anyway in these spots I like to punish their bad pre flop play by just bettIng hilar small. Their c/r ranges are just stupidly polarised and weighted to bluffs, so not folding vs raises as I think he's capped at like 10s and his 'value' range is incredibly thin and a lot more likely to call down.

Looks like a really obvious cold 4 to me. I also peel as the cutoff way more than everyone else, as people have said no one expects it and no one knows how to react to it- we've had multiple different answers suggesting bet sizing or checking. Just because everyone does something doesn't make it correct, poker has a massive sheep tendency where people like to do what the masses do. Although I'm more likely to 3 bet and peel online as virtually no one does that, where as live a few "old boys" will 3 bet TT etc and then peel

By obvious I mean that people will expect you to be lighter than norm as everyone likes to cold 4 in these spots. In a tough field its a terrible cold 4, in this comp its probably ok

Well the thing is Dubai that although you may be competent enough to play 4bet pots oop when ou flat a raise and a call 99.9999% of people who choose to do so will be burning money each time they call on this spot.

Position + skill = profit, we even have initiative here.

On a similar note everybody should try to scone very specialist in one kind of unorthodox play, if you know how to play 4ber pots ool without initiative vs all stack sizes then I think toucan probably show a profit, but even then it will be a very small one an the times you don't you will heavily risk chip preservation. Most people I see calling in these spots are just defends who want to see a flop the same color as their hand.

How would you play QJs in this spot as the cutoff?

Love your iphone posts

5bet-folding cos a 6 means they have it

I think Dubai's point is that because it's such an obvious cold 4 he has the best hand most of the time when he flats here, so his competency postflop doesn't come into it much, provided he doesn't fold.

+1

Love a good toucan

(http://www.sunrisedistrib.com/images/toucan_photo.gif)

genuinely rectified 10+ typo's :(

The word recognition on Apple products it supposed to be the best in the world. How you've managed to evade it so skilfully I'll never know =/

It does remember what words you use often though, so if you go through and check every sentence of every post for a week or so it'll get much better. Kinda tedious but will deffo improve it.

I still don't get it. Loads of blondes must use the same software, how is that you're the only one who completely butchers it :D

this had me in absolute rofl-lols for about 5 minutes :D

pulled myself together though, off to scone some specialism in an unorthodox play.

(http://thechrlog.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/scone.jpg)

I guess the fact I don't usually look at the penguin is why so many high-stakes

Lol sigh

Sharky high stakes penguins!

(http://static.redditgifts.com/images/uploaded/large-present/2012/7/5/ticket-to-ride-asia-1341554692.jpg)

thread officially off the rails

yh that hand, erm, call, or fold, idk who cares.

More pictures of penguins please.

(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/6/22/gyhWapKleEaq-430jEy_Sw2.gif)














(http://mario.lapam.mo.it/Wallace-and-Gromit/images/The-Wrong-Trousers-01.jpg)















(https://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/12/6/5/ftC5M-ZT-06sxa0egXhU1g2.gif)

I give up, what word(s) should have been there instead of penguin.

Preview I assume

page or screen i think

nh, check. whats turn.

Am i the only person folding pre?

folding pre definitely fine/std, but 4betting also ok/good in this spot too i think

hahahahahaha.

Not really "qualified" to comment as whilst I'd love to able to be able to do this kind of cold 4 betting I seem to just give up as I think about doing it (;flushy;).

Agree though that he's terrible if he's peeling oop vs this. Prolly just bet the flop and TID, if he calls though I personally would start assigning him Th Ts / Jc Jd that he's too scared to 5b.

probably gonna fold by the river tho amirite?

Villain or us?

Yep it's that terrible him flatting the 4 bet that no one has a clue what to do once he does lol.

Villains spr is 1:1.5

But someone once said flatting 4bets out of position is bad, so it must be lol. Give me a break

If villain has a weak range of hands like 10s and jacks he's going to struggle to get to showdown without putting an uncomfortable amount of chips in the pot

Let's say you have qjcc here.

What's your plans vs a 2.2k cbet on

Aj2
337
Q95
K86
Kk4
Qq5
A23

Boards?

Don't ReListicaly expect you to answer each board but just wondering how far the plan extends from trying to flop a pair and not get 'coolered'

Come on, what do I have to gain by educating on each board? But just remember pot is 9k, we had 13.5k going to the flop. Hands ain't that hard to play

I would say the world is in love with cold 4 betting Ax at moment- so would probably check fold A23 for sure.

Well it's kinda the point of the board. Giving a reason why folding can be really bad because of initiative and position is goog to be a lot better than just. Lol at people saying folding is bad.

But upto you of course, till sonebody educates me il just keep nitting it up

Obviously not :P


Really depends what he has doesn't it? Very few moves in poker are universally bad, speshly in a vacuum where there could be a whole host of legitimate, exploitative reasons to make a certain play. One of the things I see all the time, even from good players is watch someone do something that seems a little silly cos it doesn't work out, and then say "omg this guy i s terrible" mark him down as a whale and now if he's actually decent chances are your going to play sub-optimally vs him given your false read.

I can clearly see it's a fine spot to cold 4bet, can see that OTF we have strong/uncapped range and our oppo mostly has just mid-strength/weak range he is going to have to bluffcatch with but does anyone TRULY believe in a £1,000 live tournament this 4bet and 3 street barrel off is going to make money?

great work Daniel Morgan.

I'm sure u can guess which boards I'd continue on.

Thing is the majority of posters on here, including nearly all of the well known ones, are somewhere between marginal losers and marginal winners- their stats are masked by false perception of results due to decent volume. By following the crowd as they all aspire to they basically cap their expected future rois at 30% or whatever. I will go as far as telling them that following the crowd might make them a winner but it will also just make them one of the robots that needs to play 6 nights a week and 12 tables to make an amount of money per year that we'd consider acceptable. Id suggest if they really want to be good, be the trend, don't follow it. Thinking uniquely and analysing stuff in a different way to others is the only way they will ever actually get in front of the game enough to be able to take some time of and enjoy life.

Obviously you're one of the only few people that try and think independently

not playing tournaments is another way to do this :D

Agree, maybe my comment was a bit OOL. Especially the way I play  ;D

I don't see him being ABLE to continue without TT/JJ maybeeee 99 here. And I don't see how he can be comfortable when we're repping a biggun pre and he's got probably the worst overpair. EDIT: Regarding the buy-in, I think doing this in for instance 150 deepstacks is NOT advisable. I think £1k events though surely people will play a little more standard :S

Also agree dave about the whole "reasons" for things but I REALLY don't see how this move is profitable vs Liam in this particular spot.

Its ok if he has a plan and his range isnt this standard Aj/AQ/KQ/88+. Most importantly he has to be extremely comfortable in really marginal situations, which i think you only really get with a lot of experience/analysis away from the tables.

Cold 4 is a viable option, but not really the optimal play for me here early on in the tourney against what I believe must be a value 3b
I presume he can have any premium pair, I can't see him taking an oh so standard 5b/c with this stack this early. And may just be reading you as making a light 4b and want to see how you play post.
I presume you lead out?
my post flop plan here, snap check flop
diamond turn - 2.7k /fold
6 turn - pot bet
J+ b/f

Hero says he's been opening a lot, peeling a lot & describes a triple-barrel where he forced villain to fold. If I'm at this table I would categorise hero as fairly active LAG player. In terms of the multiple oppos to get through Villain 1 is a very good player and knows how we play but we don't know how Villain 3 plays who is also a good player. And we have A-6 which wont flop good. Don't think this is the nut best spot to cold 4bet bluff 14% of our stack.

Whilst i completely agree with your thoughts, its hard to get a nut best spot, we just want a +cEv spot. Obviously due to balance issues this affects spot selection, and this one looks pretty good in terms of that, esp if not getting 5b bluffed.

I honestly have no clue post, time to do a few ev charts :)

I think we need to think a bit more outside the box than "he prolly has 99-JJ and we can bomb him off it" if this guy is good, which we suspect he might be then there is every chance he has a) QQ-AA, or b) something else "dubai-style" :P snap giving him 99-JJ and taking off is prolly not a good idea.

He obviously could well still have those hands, but we need to think broader about these spots if we are going to be cold 4-betting these spots pre-flop, imo.

I mentioned in OP that i put AA/KK in his range and not 99/TT.


Opening alot from late position, rarely from mid-early. i dont think my image was LAG at all tbh, apart from the fact I look young so naturally get that label.

Yo the label players give you is ultimately more important than the label you give yourself. If I'm at the table and see a young gun "opening a lot" and "peeling a lot" and triple barrelling already at 150/300 I would think pretty laggy.

No, me too but wouldnt be much of a thread then :-)