blonde poker forum

This was a hand from today's £30 freezout tournmanent at the Gala, Notts.

65 runners, about 7 hands played. I know nothing about my opponent. Never seen or played against him before.

10 players per table. The standard on my table is pretty poor.

Blinds are 50 and 100. 6k starting stack.

Assuming seat 1 is the small blind:

Seats 4, 6, 7, and 8 call for 100.

I'm sitting in seat 9 and look down to see  Kd Ks. I make it 800 to play.

Folds round to Mateyboy in seat 4 who reraises to 2200.

Folded back round me. I flat call the 1400.

Flop comes  2h 4d 7c

He bets 2000.

I have 3400 left. He has slightly more chips than me and would eliminate me from the competition.

What should I do?

All in baby!!!

All-in everytime. Though I'd have shoved it all in preflop.

What do you reckon he has?

Would he limp from 2nd position and then reraise with TT, JJ, QQ, AK? Wouldn't he just raise in the first place?

he is a blondite and had 74o

I didn't read your original post properly.  >:? So I put him on either KK or AA or maybe QQ.

Yep all in. If he aces then so be it. Yet it as likely for him to have queens. Then there are number of overpairs getting slightly less likely from jj-88 or maybe he has ak and is bluffing. If he has a set or aces c'est la vie, but you are ahead of too many hands here and there is going to be a final pot (he is committed here for the final 1400 on top) of somewhere around 12k giving you about 3 to 1 on the all in.

You just can't pass IMO. I can feel a nasty story coming here.

I think you should've folded preflop. His play stinks of AA. However, who folds KK preflop...

I assume you didnt put him on AA in the first place as you called his preflop raise. He is unlikley to reraise preflop with 22,44,77 tho u never know. It reeks of AA but you must go with your first decision and put i tin.

Snoopy if you pass these hands you are going to be wrong more often than not!!!

I push him in before the flop, i understand your smooth call for no ace... and well no ace came!

If he has aces then so be it! You can't play scared...

On the 7th hand of a freezout with the blinds at 50/100, I just can't see anyone limp-raising with anything but AK, KK, or AA.

I thought that if I saw the flop I would find out if he had AK, and perhaps get a better read on him if he bet.

Would anyone have folded preflop?

There's always the chance that he didn't have the intention of raising when he limped preflop but saw lots of limpers behind him and then a large raise fom late position and thought "if I raise here I can take this and the pot is quite large now".

I'd have been all in preflop - I find in this comp you can't really sit around too much and wait for chips because the blinds start going up quite quickly.

If he was a regular then the limp then re-raise would shout Aces. However, most of the players don't have the experience of the Pot-Limit games to be making these sort of plays.

You gotta call here, I think 10 10 is the most reasonable hand here. He limps hoping to catch a set against a lot of players, therefore getting high implied odds. You raise shuts that out for him so he decides to put the pressure on you with you pocket pair.

I think you guys are overestimating the intelligence of some of these players.

Would he really make a play like this without one of the top 3 premium hands?

When he reaches the flop, half his stack has disappeared. Even a top class player wouldn't take this risk.

He may put u on a steal your raise in position against limpers a classic move, but your No 1 problem here is not the preflop or post flop action its that you don't know your opponent, alot of the questions you are asking could be answered if you knew him what box is he in Rock,Aggressive,Loose,Novice.
A good agressive player could have 9 10s there but played them like Aces you flat call his raise(weakness)smells like AK mid pr ?,so a rag flop he fires only a couple of hands you can call with or re raise with so the odds are with him.
I think you must push and hope and what box u put him in will be answered for next time u meet.

Hope i made some sort of sense i can't talk proper grammar like most of the Blondes (not that clever me).

Regards BA

But why would he take the risk?

If I move-in with queens, kings, or aces, he's just thrown away half his stack unnecessarily.

This is a £30 freezout remember.

I don't think I know very many people who think this at the Gala who would think this, never mind act upon it.

Plus, at this level, the table is full of calling stations.

Do you give the player enough credit to be flat calling in early position with a big hand though?

What did he have out of interest... or don't you know?

OK hes got JJ 1010 so you raise does he flat call or does he re raise and find out exactly where he is i.e you where stealing and fold,or you go all-in and he knows hes beat and folds so re-raising gives him a better chance of taking the pot there and then.
IMO good players will take bigger risks early on to amass chips ready for the business end plus hes still got enough chips to play if hes folds.
Think about his strong play has got you thinking about folding KK on a rag flop.

BA

I know what he should do, but these players don't. They flatcall because they're passive.

Yes, because limping from early position with aces has become a standard play. It used to be sneaky, but now everyone seems to do it.

Don't know if it makes a difference, but this guy was about 26 in very casual clothes. I'd not seen him there before. Judging a book by it's cover, he didn't look stupid, but he didn't look like a shark either.

His preflop raise was very quick and confident and when he bet the flop, he was making the odd facial movement whilst gently tapping his finger on his arm.

Phil.

You're a good Gala player.

Would you make his play with a hand that wasn't AA, KK, or QQ?

starting stack = 6k.

Halved by the flop.

A lot of these players also think "it's only £30 so if i lose then who cares?" not "it's a freezeout so I can't put half my stack in".

Did he have blonde hair?

True, but I made the judgement that this kid didn't want to exit too early.

He had a shaved head, with light brown hair.

So no... he didn't have 4-7

But i thought you'd already admitted you had nothing on this person, the way he plays etc etc.

For all you know he is a 7 time WSOP bracelet winner here in the UK on a sight seeing tour and fancied a nice cheap friendly game of poker......

Personally i would reraise all in on the flop - if he has aces or has flopped a set then ho hum at least you know for next time (provided his sight seeing tour lasts more than a week!! ;))

I don't. Just guessing and making generalisations.

Unless it's a very deep stacked tourney, with very small blinds, sometimes AA vs KK (even after seeing a flop) cannot be gotten away from.

Snoop, if you thought "he's got aces" then you wouldn't call with KK pre flop. Now that you have it's going in surely?

See thats where you have to be careful, i mean most people would look at me and say "he cant be any good".

Oh wait..................darn another trip to monkey A&E to remove yet another bullet from my foot

Personally I would ONLY make that move with AA... although I'm not keen on the move at all.

The hands I've been paid off with at Gala have been hideous though and when you think of the potential range of hands that the avarage gala player player could have is huge. Without knowing the specific player I would say he could have any hand from 77 up to KQ.

I can say from experienced that I have been limp-rasied with 77... i was pot commited with AQ after my raise and that time and nearly fell out of my seat after annoucing to the table "he's definitely got Aces or Kings". This wasn't at a freezeout admittidly, but it shows the type of player we could be talking about.

I know who you're guessing at, and if its him - CALL!!!

It was a youngish relatively quiet player. Didn't recognise the face, so probably not a regular. In the first 7 hands, he hadn't made a raise or got himself involved in any pots.

Did you pass snoops?

I still think that 95% of players raise with QQ, KK or AA here, and I think we can probably rule out QQ and KK here as they are the least likely hand to play with an early position limp. AK wouldn't be played this way either in my opinion.

He's either at it with A7, has a pair 88-QQ or he has Aces. The range of hands is far too big (without having a read on the player) to not call here IMO.

Yes, I dwelled for ages before passing.

He had aces.

A calling station doubled me up not long after.

I went on to win the comp.

Weird that this one hand could have eliminated me if I'd called.

I'm not saying I folded and now look at me. I accept that sometimes you can make a bad judgement call and then get lucky. I was just wondering if this was one of the times where I did get lucky. Perhaps he could easily have had TT, JJ, QQ, or AK.

Also, I admit that if I suspected aces so adamantly, then I should have passed preflop. I didn't quite realise what a large percentage of my stack the call was costing me. Also, I wasn't 100% preflop, but when he bet the flop I was pretty sure he had theim. His body language suggested aces and he left about 1k behind rather than moving all-in. I think with some of the other hands highlighted on the thread, he'd just move in.

Did he actually show you the two aces or just tell you later?

If i had a banana for every time i told people i had aces when really it was K-Q o/s..................... ;)

I think with some of the other hands highlighted on the thread, he'd just move in.
[/quote]

Good point.

And good result!

Thought I was on for a win the week before if it wasn't for one bad hand on final and i ended 4th.

I just 'knew'.  :D

Nah, he showed.

Good point.

And good result!

Thought I was on for a win the week before if it wasn't for one bad hand on final and i ended 4th.
[/quote]

Good to see the Blondeites are fairing well in these comps. I really enjoy them. Just one hand at the start and  I feel like I've got a good chance.

nice result snoops.............was i on a % ?

And when you told everyone you laid down Kings did they all look at you like "yeah right.........."?

I'm sure I could sort u out at the bar. (http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/drunk2.gif)

I didn't tell any1.

I folded KK to an AA limper once at Walsall. When he showed, I told him what I folded and he said,

'If you had kings, then I've only got one ball'.

So if you see anyone walking funny, you'll know he limps with aces.


ps. I don't make a habit of mucking kings. I think that is the only time I've ever passed preflop.

you are a better player than me, passing KK in a £30 comp!!

Well done that dog.

First off Snoops great pass. (Although I still think the pass pre flop woulda been fine - I'm not sure I can call pre flop then pass after) Great result.

Secondly people, don't let that Beagle fool you. He'll pass aces pre flop if you twitch enough.

Thirdly Snoops, no laughing at my "I just knew" comment! Yes I did read it! :D

so just out of curiosity what made you change your mind pre-flop to post-flop?

If you put your opponent on Aces pre-flop then why did you call the reraise? If you didnt put your opponent on aces preflop then what changed you mind to make you pass post-flop on a raggity rainbow board?

Maybe the bet of 2000 instead of all in. JJ and QQ would surely go all in here.

Like I said on the previous page, I regret making that call as it was too high a percentage of my stack. However, I wasn't sure he had aces until the flop.

thats why i'm asking - what was it that clinched it for you? If he goes all in on the flop instead of only betting 2000 do you call? if he checks and then goes all in on the turn or river and no A or K has hit the board do you call?

There were 3 factors:

-- The fact that the rest of the table was rubbish.
-- His body language
-- Leaving so few chips behind

Obviously you're never 100% sure, but I always go with what I think, whether it means laying down big hands or called with weak ones.

I couldnt disagree more!

I concur... Brilliant for being right on this occassion but you will be wrong so many time more than you are right!

I don't think so. 9/10 the limper has Aces there.

Snoopy,

In a £30 Freezout 1 out of 1000 players would make this laydown and 95 out of 100 would push in pre-flop. You are either a genius that can read players after meeting them the first time or you took too many drugs at Uni. Which one we will see in your future results.

Cheers Rob

Fact is he read he was behind, laid it down and was proved CORRECT. As I've said I personally would have either reraised or passed preflop but for not losing the REST of your stack.....



Great pass.

If 9 players move all in and you call the all in on the BB with 72, the flop comes 777, its a 'great call' becuase you win the pot, this does not make it right.

No of course it doesn't - but but the scenario you mention doesn't involve reading where you are in the hand and acting accordingly - which is what Snoopy did.

If Snoopy had folded due to him not wanting to be out so early I'd agree with you - it's a bad fold whether the opponent had aces or not, because as you guys have said, more often than not Snoops would have been ahead.

However he didn't fold for that reason - he read he was behind. If he had read he was behind and then called surely that'd be an bad call?








N.B. Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for the action preflop - not post flop.

A better way to word what I've just said would be:

If Snoopy reads he's behind post flop, do you still think he should put his chips in? Even though he feels quite conclusively that he's behind?

How does he 'read' he is behind?

He reads confidence in his opponent? Well his oppo likes that flop if he had QQ JJ TT......

you can't put someone on 1 hand, you have a range, snoopy was ahead to this range, so surely its a bad fold?

Especially with no info on the player, now if he had played him every week for 2 years then you would have a point.

Wouldn't QQ JJ TT go all in on this flop? Instead of betting 2k out of 3k?

Betting 2k is the same as all in here, there is 10k in the pot after he bets 2k, i really dont see him passing for 1k, regardless of his hand.

The bet smells of aces to me. It's so strong - he wants a call/raise. Only aces is unafraid of this flop when considering the pre flop action. I know it'd be a move you 'should' do with QQ to look stronger - but this is a £30 freezeout not the WSOP.

Granted, you can never know 100% what someone has. Going with your gut is part of it. However Snoops says he was fairly certain. His read was correct. Had the guy turned over QQ then bad pass, but if you are correct how wrong can you be?

If Johnny Chan had made the same pass on TV everyone would be treating him like a god.

I dont like to agree with royal flush much! But in this instants i do... What were saying is that Passing kings is great but you will make the wrong decision more often than not, As putting a guy on aces is very difficult! Where a range of hands is far easier.

Dont make a habit of passing Kings, its not good for your health!

I'm sure if the guy would have had QQ, Snoops would have read that perfectly too and reraised pre flop!! ;)

After everything I've said I've gotta be honest - I would have lost all my chips preflop. Or in Snoopy's position, post flop too. :)

Gamblor/Royal Flush, just wanna know your views on this....

I read about a heads up cash game Stu Ungar was in once (Hold'em). He's gotten involved in a pot with a huge draw and failed to hit on the river. He now has 10 high (or something really crap).

His opponent bets very big on the river (sorry I cant remember details - it may have been all in) and the way the board has fallen Ungar knows he can only be beating 2 or 3 hands possible which haven't hit the board in some way.

However he is convinced he's winning and that the guy has one of these holdings by the betting that has gone before. He calls and wins the pot and the hand is now stuff of legend.

Is that considered a bad call as most of the time it is a losing play?

I remember a hand i read from doyle brunson which was similar, he had missed a str8 draw and had jack high. The diffrence is Doyle played the guy week in week out for years, he knew the guys game and so could make the call.

As for if Johnny Chan had made the pass, it makes no diffrence its still poor!

Yup another excellent point there.

So hypothetically, if Snoopy passes this hand when he's behind but calls every other hand with KK in a similar position when he's ahead (which is impossible obviously), would you consider the fold he makes still to be poor just because it is not the percentage play?

My point being; if Snoopy always plays by the %'s he'll win long run, but doesn't that take something away from the game?

I mean generally speaking I agree with what you are saying. The mojority of the time Snoopy shouldn't pass here, (I bet the majority of the time he wouldn't either!) but if he does pass this hand on those times he is behind surely he's doing something right?

Yes i said earlier, him passing in this spot is brilliant play but overall you will get it wrong so many more times than you are right!

Stu ungar was reading an absolute bluff therefore he must've had some information on why his 10 high was good,  amazing but he would'nt do it very often! He has had 4 betting rounds for info, lots more info than snoopy had...

In a word yes, it comes down to whether you can put a guy on AA, and nothing else, to do that you need to know the players game. Since this was a first encounter this is not possible!

Just read this thread and all i can say is  ;tightend;
I don't think I could have got away from that flop in a million years. If I were passing, it would have to be pre-flop (and I wouldn't)

When I tell a story like this it's all about a big laydown I almost made. I get married to my KK and ignore the signs. Snoopy is destined for great things.

Hi guys. This is an interesting debate which I new would arise. This is why I posted the hand I guess.

Anyhow, I don't have too much time to post at the moment, but, what I will say is that I don't make a habit of passing kings. From what I recall, I've never passes kings in a situation like this. However, sometimes your gut instinct and a number if other factors scream at you to pass. The amount of times I've ignored these shouts and been proven correct is coutless.

In all the similar situations I've been in, this is the first time that I've passed the kings. I suspected them preflop and decided that he had them on the flop.

Snoopy, completely off topic, but were you shopping in Nottingham today?

Lol go to live tournament updates mate.

 :blonde:

Phew, saw someone that looked like him today... glad I resisted the temptation to ask a complete stranger if he was called Snoopy then!!

I did pop back from Copenhagen though for a spot of Notts shopping. Not too keen on the shops round here. ;tk;

for me its a no brainer, he has A A i wouldnt of called preflop, why cant u put someone aces kings or queens limping in early posistion with only 7 hands played? id limp with aces in early posistion, the blinds arent worth taking after the flop ull ull know if ur aces are still good

Hi guys just got in from the £1000 freezeout at luton and I passed KK in the very 1st level preflop.

The raiser had been in every pot but had just shown down the nuts and I was on 9000 chips after a starting stack of 10k. We had been playing about 30 mins. (On the very 1st hand this player had raised 400 out of the bb after me and Dan Samson had limped we folded and the dealer accidently exposed A3o).

He open raises to 300 6x the bb raise which was a normal sized raise for him and there are 2 callers before it gets to me and I was in the cutoff seat. Now I am very happy to pick up the 1000 no risk so I make it 2200 to play. The original raiser now goes into the tank but I already think he has his mind made up and I am pretty sure he is gonna move all in. After a 30 second dwell he says all in and slides all his chips in. I nearly passed instantly thought for another 10 seconds and flipped them face up he shows me AA. 

To me this was a very easy fold and I disagree with the people who say you can't fold KK preflop. Once he went all in I had no intention of calling I don't think. I went on to amass nearly 50,000 in chips and then proceeded to lose them all after some ridiculous bluffs but that is another story.

I will be posting a few hands from the tournament soon which I think were interesting maybe not now as I am still working out how I am not still in (oh yeah I bluffed them all off like an idiot)!

We've all been there. I recall you being the recipient of me doing so in a Brighton Omaha comp.

Looking forward to the hands, get some sleep in the meantime man. :)up