blonde poker forum

Have a feeling I must do something wrong with this hand but am not sure what? It might just be a cooler but something doesn't quite sit right in how I played the hand.

Pre - should I just call the raise instead of 3betting?
Flop is OK
On the turn should I be just calling his raise rather than making the massive overbet as I am unlikely to get called off by worse.

It felt like I could only lose to QQ but does he only call me off with QQ or 33 here and I might have convinced him to fold 33?

Or is it just one of those hands you can not do a lot about?

PokerStars Zoom Hand #87068474039:  Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2012/10/03 0:05:44 WET [2012/10/02 19:05:44 ET]
Table 'Hydra' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: dajstack ($36.05 in chips)
Seat 2: 33teetwo33 ($105.05 in chips)
Seat 3: ru.admin's ($25.86 in chips)
Seat 4: c_anest@ ($73.51 in chips)
Seat 5: Happyling ($21.17 in chips)
Seat 6: lilhand23 ($28.25 in chips)
33teetwo33: posts small blind $0.10
ru.admin's: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 33teetwo33 [7d 7c]
c_anest@: raises $0.50 to $0.75
Happyling: folds
lilhand23: folds
dajstack: folds
33teetwo33: raises $1.50 to $2.25
ru.admin's: folds
c_anest@: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [Qc 3d 7h]
33teetwo33: bets $3
c_anest@: calls $3
*** TURN *** [Qc 3d 7h] [8d]
33teetwo33: bets $8
c_anest@: raises $20 to $28
33teetwo33: raises $71.80 to $99.80 and is all-in
c_anest@: calls $40.26 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($31.54) returned to 33teetwo33
*** RIVER *** [Qc 3d 7h 8d] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
33teetwo33: shows [7d 7c] (three of a kind, Sevens)
c_anest@: shows [Qs Qd] (three of a kind, Queens)
c_anest@ collected $145.27 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $147.27 | Rake $1.50
Board [Qc 3d 7h 8d Jh]
Seat 1: dajstack (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: 33teetwo33 (small blind) showed [7d 7c] and lost with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 3: ru.admin's (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: c_anest@ showed [Qs Qd] and won ($145.27) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 5: Happyling folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: lilhand23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

This deep we can call from sb, 100bs folding would probably be best.

As played as ugly as it sounds turn is a b/f as he shouldn't be cake cutting with aces and would most likel 4bet pre because you've shown great. Strength to 3bet a utg open oop.

I assume we are folding as the UTG raise makes his range stronger? Sorry to sound a bit dumb here but really? Is 100BB deep not enough to set mine, I do this a lot is that a leak?

Would the 3-bet be OK if the raise came from the button?

what would your current defending range be from the sb?

Probably too loose tbh - assuming no strange dynamics or history with the player

Calling with 22-TT (4bet JJ+)
AJ, KQ, KJ (4bet AK and sometimes AQ)
Fair number of SC like QJ, JT

I sometime 3 bet these hands if the raise is from LP and the raiser is raising more than about 16% of hands. Is this really bad?

Working atm but should later look how I do with this range of hands in the SB I suppose.

On phone ATM but will post later, range is pretty far off though.

3bet pre is bad, just flat.

I don't agree that turn is a bet/fold. Get your money in.

Please don't post results.

Flat pre and don't see anything wrong in stacking off on the turn..

we're deep and nl10 is a nitty level, people 100% aren't raising worse ott, I think its a really clear b/f.

Regarding pre flop, defending hands like kj are going to show a huge loss, 1) we dont hand position 2) we don't have initiative. Remember the pleno1 theorem which is correct in most cases, position + initiative  = profit, we have neither here and even our equity vs his range is poor.

What about 33? Can he have that?

Are we saying he is less likely to have that due to the way it was played preflop. I do see that there really are not too many hands he can have he that do that ott.

I agree the 3bet pre was definitely bad btw.

Yes, but it is a 3bet pot...


This type of thinking is something that I believe could be very dangerous in your poker career Patrick. All this "100% aren't..." stuff is lazy and sloppy thinking and is much too definitive an assessment. Same when someone says, "He can never have a flush there" or "It is impossible for him to have xx hand" or "This player never bluffs". Too much certainty is a bad thing, and you should try to avoid making blanket statements like this - they lack subtlety and finesse and lead to brittle, inflexible thinking.

Plus tbh, I just flat out disagree with your overall assessment anyway. When I was grinding NL regularly I used to sometimes mess around at micro-stakes to try things out (e.g. raising every hand, never being allowed to raise preflop, 3betting half my hands etc etc), and I have seen a huge amount of weird, wonderful, and downright random stuff going on from the players there - and not just due to the silly dynamic I would create.

It is completely reasonable for villain to have 33 here - and I can't see why you'd think otherwise. Tbh, it is also perfectly likely for villain to have AQ here and think it is the nuts (I have seen that a lot). Or any Qdxd. Maybe even any Qx hand, who knows? Or like JJ, and he "puts you on AK" lol, and jams because, well, that's randomly what he decides is good play at that particular moment. Or even something just completely weird and unexpected - because all people do weird stuff from time to time. Tbh, what characterises most 10NL players is not that they are nitty, it is that they are not very good at poker. Some are bad nits, some are bad TAGs, many are just clicking buttons.


Obviously I disagree completely.


Agree with this for the most part, although as you know I think you do over-value having the initiative sometimes. Didn't realise you had your own theorem though ;)

my girlfriend played a session of nl2, people folded to 72% of 3bets, times have changed and at micro stakes i promise you they play extremely nitty/cautious. regarding 100%'s if you read any recent thread, i always accommodate for stray combos.


etc

regarding its a 3bet pot, i really do think that 100% (changed to 97% for you) they will treat aq-aa as a bluff catcher ott. i agree about 33, but think that aq is virtually never, unless they are trying to buy free showdown, which would be a lot more common with a hand like jj/q10/qj

john black will come and tell you if im wrong :)

also spoke with a guy that has done 60,000 hand evaluations at nl10 and he pretty knows exactly whats going on who agrees with most of the above.

Spazz equity should always be taken into account, and more than just a 3% allowance. But I am happy to disagree with you on this, it is just different philosophy that's all. So let's pretend I completely accept that villain never has worse than a set here...

If villain really can ONLY have 33 or QQ here then we clearly still should not fold. We have 50% equity and plenty in pot already. Moreover, villain is actually rather more likely to have 33 than QQ for two reasons:

1. He may 4bet QQ some of the time (please don't say 10NL players 100% never 4bet QQ lol).

2. He might be less likely to raise the turn with top set than with bottom set, due to top set having blockers to TP hands that he'd perceive could pay him off.

So I'd suggest slightly discounting QQ... Which means you are a favourite!

Add in any chance that villain has a wider range, and the maths is even better.

The only problem with this is that villain can also have 88. However, we are assuming these guys are nits aren't we... and nits would fold 88 on the flop most of the time (100% of the time? ;) Lol). I am happy to include some 88 combos if you are happy to include some AQ/KK/AA combos - and this balances out of course.

Villain can have all the 88 combos too?

Just read first 4 paragraphs! Thy may be not but would still play 88 the same and If the turn was a 6 thy fold

If villain will call flop with all 88 combos then he will also call with all 87s combos. After all, 87s is a better hand on this flop than 88. Whether a 10NL player would open 87s UTG is up for debate... but then so is whether a nit would call this flop with 88 in a 3bet pot.

Let's cut out the assumptions. I don't know for sure that a 10NL player does not ever open 87s UTG. I don't know for sure that a 10NL player does not call 88 on this flop. I don't know for sure that a 10NL player does not ever raise this turn with AQ or KdQd or a slowplayed AA.

For that matter I am most certainly far from certain that a 10NL player (all nits remember) would not 3bet 77 from the SB vs an UTG raise! ;)

Yes, we are deep. But it's not like I am advising stacking off with top pair. We have a set!

Anyway, no more from me on this one. Can't believe I have spent so much time on it. OP just got coolered and posted it because he then started to doubt himself. Get the money in. Boo when villain has QQ. Hurray when villain has 33 or AQ.

I want to say 50p here, but don't actually know what it means. It seems to be used whenever someone posts a really obvious hand that was just a cooler or whatever. Is that the right use? Is it a blonde in-joke that I am missing out on? Wish I was more down with the kids...

50p fine for the cooler jar

do have a big problem with having a donking range on this board tbh

Not a donk. OP 3bet pre then cbet flop.

This is probably true at the end of the day and if it had not been for the fact that I was playing 300BB deep and was wondering about reverse implied odds I probably would even have posted here. As it is though the thread helped a lot and the advice is really good. I believe Pleno when he says it is (or at least might be)a bet/fold on the turn but am pretty sure I am not good enough to ever make this play but knowing this might help me in similar situations.

Think the thread was valid and helpful :-)

I know it feels 'solved' and I don't mean to wander in and spoil the party... But as a reg in the micros stakes on zoom stars games.. (over 100k hands in last month) and I'd like to think one of the more solid ones now after a lot of work.

My views are similar to Pleno.

In this spot you will see roughly the following combo wise:
3 combos of QQ       ('they' definitely realize to wait till the turn with this hand a lot)
1 combo of 88         (it's rare but not impossible
1 combo of 87         (I know some people won't fold a flopped pair, and with your 77's it only leaves one sooted combo left)
and maybe
1 combo of 33         (he will raise flop most of the time when this deep for sure)
1 combo draw like  4d 5d   (they do peel these pre, and when they do, they don't like folding when deep - i lost with my KK to 4d 5d in a 4bt a few days ago)

The key parts to this hand are the preflop action, 3bt-ing oop here is completely criminal.  When this deep, he will obv be peeling a little wider but I have yet to see anyone getting a shovel for their money with less than tptk in these pots.  And they (myself included) don't even do it with that all the time. 

I don't know how many hands you've got on ru.admin's but he is a pretty solid reg in my experience and so this becomes a fold from the SB.  I wouldn't hate a flat, but it definitely goes fold>call>3bt for me with the position of OR.

On this specific turn action he is never bluffing.

I know this sounds obvious but it is definitely under-estimated.  He will not have a combo draw hardly ever, they just peel it when IP.

This does definitely narrow his range down to something like that above... and when we have the blockers to 78 sooteds, it just makes it that much more unlikely.


With the confirmation that they will more often than not flat QQ otf and more often than not raise 33, it's not even close to anything but a fold ott.


I know this might seem strange, bad, nitty, insane coming from someone as 'spewy' as me.. but I've got a lot of hands on this site at this level with these players.  It is simply the truth.

It is not 50p, it is burning 350bb's

You have gotten into a 700bb pot with 3rd nuts, and I know this might sound harsh or rude or otherwise but they will so rarely call off with worse here - ever.  If I were you - as played I'd be folding turn for sure, I'd hate it and I'd probably have a moan about it.  But they just don't have AA here hoping to get in this many bb's.

(it is absolutely not meant to be mean btw)


With a combo draw
 308  games     0.000 secs    61,600  games/sec

Board: Qc 3d 7h 8d
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    39.935%     39.94%    00.00%               123            0.00   { 7c7d }
Hand 1:    60.065%     60.06%    00.00%               185            0.00   { QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, 8h8s, 3c3h, 8s7s, 5d4d }

Without a combo draw
 264  games     0.000 secs    52,800  games/sec

Board: Qc 3d 7h 8d
Dead: 

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    33.712%     33.71%    00.00%                89            0.00   { 7c7d }
Hand 1:    66.288%     66.29%    00.00%               175            0.00   { QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, 8h8s, 3c3h, 8s7s }

Not spoiling the party at all.

I should be think more about reverse implied odds in these spots I guess? Bottom or middle set this deep on that board is nowhere near as good as it would be 100BB deep right? Realistically that is the hand I am usually going to make though and am in in bad shape against a player ready to put his 300BB stack in.

This.

100bb it's a 50p, bored already. :)

I'm glad my post didn't offend.

I hadn't read the thread, it was the punchline to the joke.