blonde poker forum

Pretty difficult river spot.

Reads:

guy is 3betting me alot
3bet bvb when i minraised with j9s before
has been v aggro
has seen me call all in on river with 56 on j25 3 k
has saw me raise turn with 88 on kq28 and jam v big over donk on q river


  €5/€10  No Limit Holdem 
Prima 
2 Players 
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com (http://weaktight.com/) 
 
Stacks: 
SB  pleno1 (€2,784.58) 278bb 
BB  Player5 (€3,785.50) 379bb 
 
Pre-Flop: (€15, 2 players) pleno1 is SB :6d :7d 
pleno1 raises to €20, Player5 raises to €85, pleno1 calls €65 
 
Flop: :7c :6s :9h (€170, 2 players) 
Player5 bets €120, pleno1 calls €120 
 
Turn: :4d (€410, 2 players) 
Player5 bets €350, pleno1 calls €350 
 
River: :3h (€1,110, 2 players) 
Player5 checks, pleno1 (€2229.58)? 

b/f and I bet 710.

Is this a 6m table thats broken down to a headsup match ?


Bet/fold like €630 ?

yeh exactly.

i think i like potting it, you shouldn't have many 5's in your hand and he likely won't release an overpair.

950/fold

You put a lot of pressure on his whole range raising the flop here surely?

Yeah raise flop, not because of pressure on his range (whatever that means), just get some value

I mean, we could raise this flop with LOADS of hands couldn't we?

 Jh Th / Js 8s / 6c 8c loads of stuff, wat the hell is he going to do even if he has ACES, just call us down? I like the idea of being able to make his life hell even when he has close to the top of his range, that's the best thing about deep stacks IP in NLHE imo.

That's what I meant by putting pressure on him, and as I side of this we may as well raise here as well.

We'd be raising those other hands to put on pressure, we're raising this hand for value. Not getting it in tho btw. As played 660 river, 900+ screams value to me.

And not folding if he shoves.

FYP imo

+1

i really dislike raising flop, but great to hear opinions, will post lter.e

The more people that agree with this, the more wrong it is, DUCY?

+1

i agree, these days you probably make more from bluff catching keeping your range wide and balanced than by getting hero'd which in general doesn't happen often. I guess it depends how you play though as to how ppl will react to a flop raise but for me raising flop is really bad.

The point being we put him in far worse spots raising than calling?

Just makes us harder to play against when we're raising here imo, deep stacked, in position I really think these are spots we should make people hate their lives against us.

Keeping this in the context of the hand vs someone that we have little history against would you agree that we want to rep a polarised range?

Not sure why we want to be putting the top of his range in a coffin when we have such a strong hand? I'd much rather just let him merrily barrel his life off which theres a decent chance he will do on this texture. Really not at all bothered about being balanced in this spot vs a reg that we have little history against.

It's anonymous so balance doesn't matter so much, bottom two pair is a good hand to have in our calling range for lots of obvious reasons though.

I checked river,  hE wrote damn in chatbox. If he did c/jam then it would be pretty difficult but I think he bets straights  on the river as I'm checking back a lot, and he's v unlikely to turn better hands into a bluff.

I'm not trying to put him in a tough spot, I just think he will put more money in with a worse hand than ours, and more money in now has a multiplier effect on later streets as well.

@pleno: I don't think our calling range especially needs bottom two pair in it.

I would have thought checking here is burning money in the long run? Meh, not likely to be playing 1k NL anytime soon so who knows.

Surely it's also a good hand to have in our raising range OTF, if you chose to have one, which I think we really should, on this texture.


Surely we'd like to put him in a tough spot? He might have a ridic easy fold when we raise but he could well fold thinking, mmm that would have been tricky with KK, and so on.

I can see lots of positives to calling and not raising OTF, but IDK how anyone can think raising the flop is a bad play, it's going to boil down to stylistic preference, a lot of people like to adopt a more passive approach to these types of spots, and take the same approach with the majoirty of their range here. Nothing wrong with this, taking a much stronger range to later streets and that gives you a lot of flexibility and makes life difficult for your opponent.

A differing style would be to play much faster, where you proceed aggressively with a slightly weaker range, but in order for your opponent to counter it you're forcing him to commit up to 290 big blinds to exploit you here, which I think, personally puts him in an immediately trickier spot, i.e makes you tougher to play against, imo.

Annon tables defo slightly alters the optimal way to approach this and prolly makes checking back slightly better.

I know exactly what you are saying. However it depends what 'level' he thinks we are on.

Does he realize that we know half pot looks like value so we should use big sizing with our value hands to rep a bluff/polarized range.

I imagine people below 200nl will see our big bet as bluffy/polarized. Not sure how 400nl+ will view it, guess it depends how he perceives us and how good he thinks we are.

its a value bet i like betting >800.
i dont think we induce a lot of bluffs if we bet small. also, this is a spot where well prolly turn some hands into a bluff and his river checking range should be fairly elastic.
prolly find a fold if he c/jams.

wrt flop play: depends on your flop agenda. think both are fine i prefer calling vs him tho.

I think calling on the flop is fine and is the best play here.  I wouldn't raise because
i)  I want to protect my calling range when I have weaker hands
ii)  If you raise bet bet you're only going to stack your opponent on good board run outs AND he'll have to hero you down
iii)  If he 3 bets the flop i'm hating (or at least disliking) life.  You're generally crushed if you get it in on the flop
iv)  Calling keeps his range as weak and wide as possible. 
v)  There are a few turns that could potentially give him a good second best hand i.e. if he has kq you want him to see a turn.

Hands I would raise the flop with are more nutted hands, draws and bluffs with some sort of backdoor/overs equity. 

On the river i'd value bet but i'd bet on the smaller side, say 580.  The reason being when you are value betting the river you are either trying to convince your opponent that you are value betting a worse hand than his or that you are bluffing.
Its pretty difficult for you to be bluffing here as you pretty much have to have at least a pair to call the turn (and although you could be say turning 3rd pair into a bluff in reality most players just check back and hope they're good).
So when you bet the river you want to make it look like you are going for thin value with say a 9x hand and ensure that you get a call by all overpairs/9x hands etc, where as villain should be folding overpairs to a pot size type bet.  He's also much more likely to curiously flick it in with a bluff catcher if you bet smaller. 
Even if I had the straight here i'd still bet small as I don't think villain will have a very strong hand here when he checks the river and we can easily have the straight.

If he c/jammed the river I don't see how a call is profitable - we can easily have a straight ourselves so I don't see why an average villain would decide to bluff here.
If he was going to bluff he would just barrel the river himself. 

now that is a mighty fine post