blonde poker forum

Hi everyone,

We are already looking towards UKIPT Season 4 and would like to get some input from you guys....

As it is the players that have made this tour such a success over the past few years we would like to hear what you would like to see change/stay the same for Season 4.

We are specifically especially interested in your thoughts on the following topics but feedback on ANY part of the tour would be much appreciated:

- Re-entry tournaments (for side events, not the main event)

- Event entry increases - side and main events

- Live satellite schedule

- General schedule comments

- New potential stops you would like to see on the tour

Thank you and hopefully we will be seeing you in Bristol in a couple of weeks :)

Jamie

Hi Jamie,

I don't think there is much I can add to what you want, but really would discourage increasing the ME entry. It just attracts those that may be able to afford it and another increase will knock off some punters for sure. With all gte's met, no need for changes, imo.

With regads to other locations, if you keep adding locations it's going to take the uniqueness away from the events in question and with one or two events within a couple of hours of most people, I think that is also pretty good. I wouldn't go adding many more locations.

If I had one thing to change, I would probably add more chips to proceedings, perhaps this is because I am used to having more chips to play with in buyins at more than £300+.

Otherwise, I think it's fine as it is.

Move the Edinburgh stop back to August please.

Really? In the whole of 2012 there will have been just three UKIPT stops in the whole of the UK.

Definitely consider adding a couple more stops within the UK. And don't forget there are four countries in the UK.

I'd prefer it if the main events were limited to 3 days.  4 days really puts me off. 

I know people will say that only the final tablists need to take the fourth day off,  but I don't ever work in places where you can just skip a day at five minutes notice.  Hence for a 4 day tournament it always means I need to book 2 days off. 

Entry costs are fine, but I'd be OK with higher too.

I wouldn't mind adding one or maybe 2 more locations to it, but probably wouldn't agree with a mapping out of the UKIPT.

Like said, having 2-3 a year is fine imo, adds uniqueness, rather than one every other month?

What locations would you add?

Agree regarding 4 days. Should play a slightly longer day on Saturday so the tourney is finished Sunday.

Was just going to post this. I'm fine taking a day off for a day 1 of a 3 day comp but when it could potentially run into a Monday I just don't tend to bother at all. With early start times I think there is plenty of scope to make the first 2 days longer and fit it into 3days.

England, Scotland, Northern Ireland.....nope, is there a fourth?  ;)

You could happily add another stop in the north (leeds/manchester/blackpool), another one in the south east or south coast (there are a LOT of people in this area), one in wales (I know they tried to do this) and one in northern ireland. I do agree with not having too many stops, but think there are possibly too few in the UK at the moment.

The North. A different country.

Option for 1 re entry in sides no bad thing either , a lot of players travel a good distance for these events ,if u bust out early re entry gives players the chance to maybe still make a night of it , poker wise ,instead of being stuck in a casino ,or going on the piss , most have come to play poker .
One thing I don't personally like is seeing the same players who have a seat / package still playing sats for the same event !!

Another stop in the south east is needed - only one event south and east of Bristol and Nottingham for about 1/3rd of the population.

#selfinterestFTW

The south really does need another one really. If it wasn't for a movement to Bristol a couple of months ago, then it would not have one down there.

I am not so sure about having another "central" one really, we already have Nottingham & those that are in between Nottingham and Newcastle (me, Sheffield) are pretty well off for choice really, so not sure really. I wouldn't say no, but not too fussed on another one.

Manchester wouldn't be bad for me really as I am there every other weekend, although will be a fail if it as G-Casino, after my recent banning.

Is Nottingham on the tour next year?

Also this. Very good point.

Think there may be a few ath the Hippodrome next year - you'll be fine ;)

The Hippodrome has 3 tables?

If it is to remain 4 days then midweek-Sun makes more sense than Fri-Monday?

Guarantees a bigger audience for the final than a Monday afternoon, both at venue and online.

Those who want to can play midweek and if you are taking a day off work, Friday generally better than Monday


In terms of online, live streams? Not particularly sure why, but the blog aside there was much less supporting activity this year on facebook/twitter/Stars TV etc at events (thats my perception,. it may be mistaken)

Consider using external blogger/site (cough, personal and professional interest) alongside the Poker Stars blog? Worked very well at Nottingham I thought, and the interactive updates really added something to what the Stars blog offered (excellent writing but punters don't really get involved with it)

I know just the person you need to contact.....

Doesn't really solve the problem. The issue is currently you need to take a Friday off work regardless and then possibly a Monday if you FT.

Lol @ Richard Prew but he speaks sense. He definatly contributed immensely to the excitement generated by the Dtd Ukipt event. Sign him up for the full tour :)

Yes, but to play a UKIPT you are going to have to take at least 1 day off. The structure is terrific, and plays out I think over three playing days, with a couple of day ones so four days total. Currently if you final you need two days off

Finishing on a Sunday at least means that you choose which of Thurs/Fri you play, and only need one day's holiday.

The ancillary benefit is you get a bigger rail live and online (blog, stream, social media) if the event concludes on a Sunday evening.

Couple of comments based on feedback thus far:

- 2012 was a slight strange year scheduling was for the UKIPT for various fairly boring reasons. We are looking to amend this for next season.

- Countries - we tried with Wales this year, unfortunately Swansea fell through and was replaced by Bristol (hopefully still attractive for players from Wales). Northern Ireland I believe is currently illegal as they have different gaming laws.

- Edinburgh - Players were critical of some aspects of the Corn Exchange as a poker venue (out of town etc etc) in our post event surveys. During festival time it is impossible to find a central venue for 500+ which makes August very difficult which is a shame.

- The Monday final table is something we have thought long and hard about. It is pretty much impossible to fit a UKIPT main event into 3 days without playing 12-14 hour days which doesn't add much to the recreational/social player experience IMO. We also looked at having Day 1A/B starting on a Wednesday but the general consensus was that this would mean even more days off (or at least the same number) for those working Mon-Fri if we started festival on Tuesday evening with Day 1A on Wednesday. We will take another look at this based on comments.

- All CVs to ukipt@pokerstars.com please ;). Seriously though, the PS UK&I marketing team has been restructured and enlarged so hopefully we will see some changes in this going forward, I will make them aware of your feedback.

Keep it coming please, all excellent stuff!

I thought the Corn Exchange was an excellent venue. Having the tournament on during the festival was fantastic.

Edinburgh in January is very unappealing.

Take some levels out and lose a day imo.

Easily drop the 75-150, 150-300, 500-1000, 1200-2400, 2500-5000 levels without taking too much play away from the event. Add antes earlier than level 6 too.

Or make the day 1 40/45 minute levels?

Please don't take those levels out. Just put in slightly longer days

Nope. Four playing days if you start on day 1B, five including day 1A

As a recreational player I hate those longer days. Gives me no chance to have a drink or get some food afterwards unless I stay in the casino or get room service. Much preferred the current format.

one day you will learn that the bigger the stack doesnt = the more play!  fewer players bust early which leads to a crapshoot on day 2+ less chips more levels works well

I know this, just was a suggestion. I appreciate the longer levels.

As someone who works hate using my annual leave to have to play.

not this, these levels are so crucial in keeping the structures good.

Less than you hate losing some levels I presume?

If the structure suffers I'm less likely to play

I think more people would prefer the tournament ends inside 4 days than would stop playing if 4 or 5 levels are ditched. 75-150, 500-100 and 1200-2400 are essentially pointless levels imo.

75/150 i can get on board with, but 500/1k is one of the most important levels in the tournament imo for keeping it semi deep.

Think structure is fine as is

2 "recreational" players have said in this thread they would prefer the tournament didn't end on Mondays.

There are 4 ways to achieve this:

1 Smaller fields.
2 Shorter levels.
3 Less levels.
4 Longer days.

I think most people would agree that options 1 and 4 are not desirable.

That leaves either option 2 or 3.

Why is option 4 not desirable? The days are really short in comparison to other live events at this buy in level.

I only have 14 minutes experience of a UKIPT main event but in that time I felt the blinds were too big

Clock was too short too?

:-) incred pressure to play hands immediately

Should have done a deal

Would really hate to have day 2 on a Friday as this would definitely mean taking 2 days off work. As it stands I can play a day 1 and if I did manage to make the Monday final I would ring in sick or come in for a few hours depending on the location.

I appreciate the majority are not in my position but as a recreational definitely having to take 2 days off work would put me off.

I like the levels and clock and the professional organisation of these events. A day off work on a Monday should not be an issue for 9 people who make ft.

Can you try to avoid the Grand National weekend? Was pretty gutted that the best event of 2012 fell on that weekend. There are plenty of poker players involved in betting/bookmaking too.

I hope Gala Bristol impress Stars enough to make it regular stop. I was there on Tuesday and they have painted the walls a much brighter colour and the room is now lighter. So it looks like they are trying to make an effort.

I am in day 1a and hope to be sending the wife to work on the Monday.

When it goes from 400/800/100 to 500/1000/100 the price per round goes from 2200 to 2500 on a ten-handed table - completely pointless. Go straight to 600/1200/100 and 2800 a round.

I'd be happy with a combination of 2, 3 and 4.  1 is obviously undesirable to pokerstars.

You can make days 2 and 3 longer then the vast majority won't even have to do a late day.  When I am working on playing online I can be up at 6 for work and finish at 3 or 4 am and multitabling online needs a lot more concentration than a single live table.  I just don't get why 12 hour days of one tabling live is really so bad. 

I definitely prefer day 2 Saturday to day 2 Friday.

There is a zero chance I am going to pull a sicky for something that is going to be on page 1 of google.

perfectly reasonable to have the main events as £1k buy in now imo. the tour is well established and strongly supported by satellites. nothing puts me off of a satellite more than seeing the expenses taking up too much of the package. it also makes it more worthwhile going to edinburgh/newcastle etc for me from the south and other players even further afield.

would of said having edinburgh on during the festival easily outweighed any problems people have with the venue (which was perfectly fine imo anyway?). the numbers for a january edinburgh will be interesting. being able to tie in the tournament with other festivals and things is a great idea and something which should be considered more often imo.

perhaps selfish but making the high roller events 1 day saturday events would interest me. it doesn't have to be a complete turbo, but the point being i am very unwilling to jeopardise skipping sundays online. i know a lot of people share my opinion and like gambling it up! may as well make it 8 handed and start with antes from the 1st level while we are at it!

another southern ukipt would be great if you can find somewhere suitable

oh and ukipt online was a good idea

I possibly underestimated how many recreational players could do this given the wage required and the positions people may hold to be able to flick it in for a £700 tournament.

I have never had a day off sick in 4 years does this make it more or less likely that they search my name on google the day after I ring in sick?

I wouldnt like the main event buyin to be increased
Not sure if this is a big deal to you but parking seems like it will be a problem in Edinburgh specfically which is  problem for anyone that lives within driving distance but too far for public transport (Especially with later finishing times) and anyone that isnt planning to get a hotel in Edinburgh for the event.  Even locals might have to taxi back and forward from their house.
Id like to see lots of changes to the high roller, it just doesnt get a good enough field, especially at the smaller stops and I think this in turn puts a lot of people off from taking a punt in it, which would create more value in the tourney and cause more people to enter.  Id maybe drop the buyin back to £1500 and deffo have more live sats for it.  If this doesnt increase the field a lot more for all events I think the HR in its current format should be limited to maybe 2 of the bigger stops (Nottingham obv and maybe Dublin?) and replaced at the others with a high buyin faster tournament, maybe something like £1200 Bounty semi-turbo (£800 + £400 for bounty) that will be done in a day.
Chris is right about the high roller too, I think you can drop 25/50, bring in antes from level 1 and make the antes more aggressive throughout.
Probably nothing that can be done about this but its unfortunate that 2 of the better side events, HR and the £300, clash with each other and with the stars party on a Saturday night.  Id like to see both of them start way earlier on the Saturday.  A possible solution might be having £300 early on the Saturday, having the Omaha on the Saturday night (early Sunday seems unpopular) and having the HR as a 1 day event starting 1st thing Sunday.
Absolutely dont take out levels from the Main, I think the structure is great as it is and would hate to see it change, if anything I think we could maybe live with 45 min levels day 1 and then 1 hour levels day 2 and play more levels day 1.  A Sunday FT does seem to suit more people and I think the rails would be better as everyone not still in a tourney of some sort seems to be over it by Monday and wants to leave.
Re-entry on the sides is fine but limited to 1 or 2 IMO.

Online sats for hi roller too? (With a seat or two guaranteed obv!)

I think they tried this but ran 2 sats total for Newcastle HR, it could work but not the way they tried it before.

Why is it "perfectly reasonable" to put buyin upto £1k.

Greed, IMO.

Not sure you would like it if EPT's, increased to 8k buyin and WSOPs to 14k?

As a recreational player I was happy to get £500 for the UKIPT Nottingham a couple of years ago. I just about stretched to £700 this year. I would not play if it was £1,000.

It is perfectly reasonable. It's going to put some people off, but the net effect might will probably be to make the tournament bigger (in terms of prize pool). It's not like if you can't play it you might as well go kill yourself, there will be other tournaments to play.

I would rather have 2 Aaron's in the field than 1 Keys.

The higher the buy in the fewer satellite qualifiers (as each satellite generates fewer seats) and the fewer direct buy-ins from rec players (as it's more expensive). So the tourney gets smaller and tougher, putting people off in the future, meaning there's less interest, fewer qualifiers, smaller and tougher fields etc etc.

The UKIPT has then turned into the GUKPT.

don't think the jump from £700 to £1k is going to make all that much difference to field numbers tbh. stars can and will satellite as many players as they want. which is what makes it completely different to the gukpt

This simply is not true.

Either they have to double the cost of sats or halve the the number of qualifiers. (talking about going from 500 to 1000 obviously).

The higher the entry fee the tougher the field.

lol why can't they double the number of satellites?

and why are we talking about 500 to 1k. this season the buy ins were 700, people complained about it when they were told it was happening, saying 500 was perfect. yet turn out was better than ever?

Just for simplicity, couldn't be arsed to work out the numbers.

They could double the amount of sats, but they wouldn't get double the qualifiers.

People have a set amount they are willing to spend of sats, it isn't a never ending pool.

Stars pull $15m out of that pool twice a year for the PCA and WSOP main. As far as the UKIPT is concerned, yes it is.

yeh i didn't mean that would double the qualifiers. stars have the platform in place to qualify as many players as they basically want to was my point.

Then why aren't all the UKIPTs sold out?

Stars obviously spend alot of time working out the best buyin.

I would prefer £500 myself.

Certainly the 2 I played (Nottingham and Newcastle) were at venue capacity. I would be very surprised if stars were bringing as many qualifiers as they feasibly could do. Are you seriously suggesting that stars can qualify 1500+ players for a $10k in the caribbean but couldn't bring 300 players to a £1k in England? IMO the UKIPT is a long way off from being as big as it could be, and at the minute it will be taking players from other medium buyin comps. Rather than being concerned about keeping the UKIPTs cheap enough for a certain level of recreational player, they could make the whole pie bigger. You have to look at the whole pie.

Lol.

Making the buyin bigger doesn't make the comp bigger, it's not even set in stone that it would make more money. The UKIPT is doing great, so why change buyin. As for what's difference between 700 and 1000 is just LOL.

I would be highly disappointed to see the buyin change. Just greed, for sure.

The qualifiers they have now just don't generate the action!

They have only 160 qualifiers for Bristol next week. And that is with sats running every day for a month.

Many of the sats to the qualifiers have 1 or 2 tables.

Just because it suits you personally doesn't mean there isn't a viable argument for increasing the buy-in besides ''greed".

(triple quote was an iPhone misclick, my bad)

It does neither. I can still play it either way, but I would choose not to if it happened.

It just doesn't need to happen and doesn't make the tourney bigger because of increased buyin.

If stars engaged their hype machine, the evidence suggests that they would be able to fill a bigger tournament many times over. Maybe Bristol as a venue is so repulsive that they genuinely can't, however I very much doubt it.

it's cool that you are happy with it, but i'm not. i spoke up and gave my feedback.

italian poker tour ran €2k with re-entry main event and had €200k ftw and I'm asking myself well why can't stars offer me this on the ukipt. (obviously they won't just fire away with that here but we are now season 3 of ukipt and it's a little underwhelming)

Go and play that.

everything is dependent.

I played a £150 tourney in Sheffield, but offered me 3k FTW, but DTD did same buyin and 10k ftw, should I take it up with them?

It is only underwhelming for someone who is used to playing bigger events. You are just pricing people out, imo.

No. That could be it.

Bahamas or Bristol... hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Inverness or Aberdeen or somewhere inbetween is only chance i will get to play a 4 day comp so as the chances of both are remote doesnt really bother me

 In terms of making the main event finish on a Sunday I have a fifth solution that nobody has mentioned.

 I suggested it to the GUKPT but that tour has not proved to be too big on innovation and I may as well have talked to a wall.

 Most players seem to agree that 9-handed is better than 10-handed. I have never heard anyone say they would rather have 10. 6-max events are also very popular but with these some recreationals feel that they are getting beaten-up a bit too much by aggro pros. In Oz they make their events 8-handed. The casinos over here always start 10-handed as they think this means they need way less dealers. The Crown in Melbourne have found out this is definitely not the case. Players get busted so much more quickly because there are more hands and people play much more aggro early. At the very start they need more dealers but soon people bust and they can let a few go.

 I think it would mean the numbers would drop much more quickly and possibly by dropping the odd level and finishing just slightly later each day you could get it to a 3-day comp.

 I personally am with The Camel that dropping early levels like 75/150 is good. I think if you have a large stack/pot ratio the effect of the table draw is much more promounced and the event becomes less about skill (everyone set mines and being on the table with the guy who can't pass an overpair is so great). I can see that that travelling satellite winners want to get the maximum big-tournament experience though. In the WSOP where you can just go #ontothenextone I can see the argument for fast early and slower later, but I think this is different. If you waited two months looking forward to your big event you shouldn't be out after a flip in level 3.

 On the HR front I think 30 minute blinds with 20,000 chips starting 100/200 on Saturday night is fine. If it doesn't finish by 3am you should at least know that if you are paying hotels and missing Sunday you are getting paid. These punters are a different market and they don't want lots of play early. They want to get to the ante stage quickly. I could see an argument for 20 minute blinds for the first six levels and 30 minute after. I think the players could help you here by buying-in early. I have been to several events where twelve people are standing around saying they'll buy-in if there are 25 runners. If they just did it there would be. I guess you could give extra FPPs for buying-in online before the day.

 

+1 to upping the buyin to £1k, stars could easily attract the same number of runners ( i think most would play these over GUKPT's) and it would make it comparable with the other tours they run in Europe.

good post Neil ^^

cut out all the 3x turbo satellites to your main events IMO. It's the main reason I hate playing them on stars, Too much of a crap shoot and too expensive, specially if it's entry only and u have had to have a few gos.

£30 with 1 add on or 55 f/o with 12 hyper feeders into them for seat only, is pretty cool, with maybe a weekly Sunday £110 with expenses. Think you should do it with a lot of your other main event tournaments too.

A couple more down the South would be great, too far to go otherwise, Nottingham and Brighton are the only ones I would realistically try to get into, but then again I'm real lazy when it comes to stuff like that.

Defiantly keep the On-line leg, but think it should have at least 15k chips with minimum 20 minute blinds. honestly thought that leg would get well over £100k to the winner, It still got plenty of runners, but think it could get a load more.

Disappointed that there was no 6 max side event too. Think all legs should have one, specially the On-line leg.

Think it's fine to reduce levels to 30/45 mins, and not fussed about the buy in, 700 or 1k is no real difference in the cold light of day, not when u can win huge amounts of money.

Think you should do, a grand final i.e all the winners of each leg play off in a 1 table tournament to become a ukipt poker-stars sponsored player for the following year, with expenses included, think that's a really good incentive to play the tours in general.              (Think you have leader boards already, so that might not be relevant, but u could defiantly spice it up a bit with a few added promotions to give the customer more value for supporting your tour.

This already happens, David Vamplew won it in season One and Richard Sinclair in season two.

Quite clearly qualifying 1500 people from around the globe to the 2nd biggest $10k of the year that has a history and also happens to be in the Caribbean in January is obviously going to be a lot easier than qualifying 300 people to a £1k in some rain drenched corner of this nation.

R.E The buyin, it's absolutley inevitable that it will be £1,000 buyin for the main events soon, this is how these tours develop. Stars introduce a concept (the UKIPT) and introduce it at the (then) vacant £500 buyin level, the continued failngs of the GUKPT leave a huge gaps in the £1000 buyin level so to test the waters the UKIPT increase it to £700 and the results are because of the organisation of the tour, and the extensive satelite platform Stars have to offer that numbers increase at the detriment of the GUKPT. The next step is FOR SURE to increase the buyin to £1,000, to guarantee the tournaments and to literally finish the GUKPT off (harsh as the GUKPT has some prestige here imo) but given the way stars operate is SO, SO very superior to the way the GUKPT does it's truly inevitable.

This is just the cycle of these things

In come Genting with the £400 buyin "GPS" events, these are seeming pretty popular, not long before there are more stops of these at the £500 or £600 level imo and they'll prolly hold that level successfully for a while as they seem pretty sharp.

And don't forget DTD, they hold a regular £500 tournament which attracts a big field.

I think the UKIPT increasing it's buyin to £1,000 is going to be a good step for UK poker as it allows other smaller tours to take control of the 300-700 buyin range (there will be plenty - and the sooner UKIPT is £1k the sooner they will improve) and let stars handle the £1k where they will obviously succeed.

Good post...

+1.

Makes valid reasons rather than "more than reasonable to increase buyin" & "X tournament offers me this, why can't UKIPT"

I still personally don't want to see an increase yet, but over a few years, maybe 1k is a good idea, but where would it stop? The whole "third season, no improvement" is a load of tosh, you don't need to walk first before you can run.

A jump to 1k next season or season after would see no improvemt in numbers or pot for sure.

if they run main events as £1k buy in next season (big if since i have no idea if they will or not) i'll have a friendly bet with you that the prize pools will be bigger for that season over last season provided they run an equal number of events and DTD is on the schedule

and the reason i think it is "more than reasonable" is that there is currently a gap in the market for a big £1k event series. the midstakes (£200-£800) market is well catered for imo with dtd, gps, fox etc. ukipt serves this very well too, but it realistically is the only rival to the gukpt, and can improve greatly on where that rival hasn't excelled. currently i don't think the "high rollers" on the ukipt cover it. the side events that come with a main event will however further bolster this midstakes market. so there will still be plenty of great comps for everyone.

yeh lild said all that better than i did. he writes very well and i didn't think to explain myself clearer in the first place.

ofc. it was an extreme example. stars are running the national tours during the ept's now tho. ukipt london could definitely be a bit more adventurous than £700 don't u think?

Agree about making the main events £1k but for me personally, would very rarely play on that meant missing a sunday online, the midweek days, esp weds/thurs are so small and sundays are so lucrative.
Im sure a lot of people are in the same boat. I dont think they should change it to account for us though.

the main events will always either conclude or run through sundays for sure. no1 is suggesting they avoid that. i was talking about the high rollers, which have a niche market probably made up a lot by people in our boat, so would carry more weight.

Why should people in London be denied the chance of a local £700 tourney when the rest of the country gets one?

It always irks me when the London leg of a poker tour is more expensive than all the other legs - GUKPT and GPS do this - which is why it was refreshing that Stars didn't for the UKIPT this year.

You show a surprising lack of imagination for someone who imagined that full tilt was "if anything safer than stars". What would happen if stars said "the PCA is in Bristol this year, deal with it." and ran all the same satellites with the same guarantees? It'd still get 2000 runners IMO. Look at deauville EPT, which stars created from thin air in the French version of Weston-Super-Mare, no "history" there but it was big enough that Jake won €800k iirc. And the IPT is a great example of one of the possible futures for the UKIPT, if you look at the flags from that €2k they aren't pulling most of the field from Monte Carlo, they're nearly all Italian, and Italy is not in the midst of an economic boom right now. I don't know if they even qualify people from stars.com, which the UKIPT would be able to do.

@Aaron: Check the bolded part of my post quoted above for the same point made by lildave (made better by him admittedly) which you missed. And seriously no improvement in numbers or pot "for sure"? I don't know how you can both be so unambitious. What if stars put up banners in the client, ran some 20seat gtd sats on a Sunday, ran some of their 1r 3x turbo sats with seats guaranteed? They have probably 300k active players on any given Sunday, which is at least 50x as many as gcasino have on their skin, and probably 300x as many as DTD who fill up a 300 runner £500 buyin tourn every month through their satellite program. All numbers are off the top of my head but you get the jist, the possibilities are there.

ept in town/higher demand/usually the grand final

didn't gukpt have 2 london stops each year? a normal one and a grand final in nov/dec?

You're right, it seems they did this year - there was a £1k in Sept.

And also it seems the GPS did this as well - had a normal priced tourney and a grand final in London.

I really should have known this, seeing as I played in the £400...

Ignore my rant earlier.

My point still stands at why they want to change the buyin, when all is going fine and is only their third season.

I can appreciate that Stars could get more people into the tourney doing such sat programs like DTD, but you have to remember that UKIPT and pokerstars are running at a loss to run these events. There is perhaps lots of things they can do, but appreciate that they still havr to focus on other dynamic parts of their business is a must. Would you prefer 200+ runners at £700 buyin or just playing it as a £1k event? Furthermore, you have just said that DTD fill their tournaments eahc month, they don't. The last 500 got something like 180 runners. It's a prime example of why the buyin should not go up, comparing the old £336 to the new £560. The £560 making a overlay this month of around £10k.

Also perhaps a sat like you mentioned with a 1k buyin... You might make more runners, but the direct buyins will not improve. The £770 is just too much for some people, but I know numerous people who put themsevles out to play this (regs of the old £336) who are already at max buyin, but desperately wanted to play it. A 40% increase for sure would make a squeeze impossible.

Also, yet people mention increases in buyin, but why not put an increase on buyin of 40% to EPT's and WSOP's? Seems valid arguement to others, with a counter point.

What happens if it turns into a £1k buyin next season (it won't) and this topic arises this time next year, maybe we would increase to £1.5k? and the year after? Or maybe it would have a effect where they have to go back to £700, which would be a massive fail.

Ok fair enough, some good points there. I do think that EPTs are probably close to optimally priced at the minute, they have been bigger, e.g. Barcelona EPT was €8k in '08 when I played it and is now €5k, so I think stars have probably given it a lot of thought and chosen what they think is the highest point on the demand curve. I think we're still some way off that point with the UKIPTs though.

Re: the DTD 500 the dip in numbers last month I think would have had a lot to do with them running a big 150 starting on the same day as more of a double A-side than a traditional side event. Also maybe some hangover from the big £500k gtd the month before. When they initially upped the buyin way back at the beginning of the year, the numbers actually went up and the prize pool through the roof.

Re: Your point about the tournaments running at a loss, by increasing the buyin they can increase the rake while their fixed costs stay the same. They also have the profit from their satellites which would go up with increased rake at every level. Finally, if they treat it as a marketing expense, I would imagine that marketing gets more effective in line with an increasing first prize.

Re: Direct buyins, maybe they would fall slightly but if that shortfall is made up by satellite qualifiers then I don't see a problem. Besides, a bigger buyin would cast the net wider geographically, so any drop in local players could well be mitigated by direct buyins from further afield. Most people seem to find it offensive that they could be priced out of buying into their local UKIPT direct, but as lildave said, it's not like they aren't spoiled for choice at that level already (for most of the UK), and by satelliting in they might even get in cheaper and have a shot at a bigger first prize in a more prestigious tournament. I just think there's room for a bigger tour in the UK as well as all the small local tours, and really if stars aren't going to run it then nobody will.

great post totally agree.

yeah good stuff as always. Which leg is likely to have most runners next year if there is not one at Dtd?

Is there a chance of there not being one at DTD?

The 500 at DTD started on a Friday and not a Saturday.  That alone would account for the drop in numbers. 

Points well made for sure.

Rake - I'd imagine venue would want more money with regards to higher buyin?

But really, do we need another tour? GUKPT/UKIPT/GPS/DTD/APAT & more.

Exactly, the UKIPT can step out of and above that bracket and fill another niche without leaving a big hole in the schedule.

Wrt venue cost, I don't know for sure but I think the venues pay for stars to bring their tour rather than the other way round.

the £300 deepstack in November 2010 got 450+ runners without re entries. The £500 deepstack next will be a success if it gets half that many runners. Makes you wonder what has happened to all those people from two years ago. Can't be the recession can it.

The £500 deepstack in September got 800+ runners without reentries right? One data point is not particularly helpful for analysis...

good point but that was  half mill gtd and not 100k tho.

thought it was common knowledge...... Thinking about it I may have messed up again, in a letting cat out of bag way now that I come to think about it :(

lol herbieaments

The venues pay Stars to run the tournaments?

Really?

That would surprise me greatly.

Yeah, doesn't make sense.

There's some missing posts here, aren't there (probably including this one shortly).

Nope, no Posts have been removed.

More fit female dealers

I don't really know, but I do know some venues pay to host a WPT. The Palm Beach tried to nick this back by taking an extra 3% out of the prize pool for WPT London which is where I first heard of it. They hadn't mentioned it before the start of the tournament so had to give it back. Most venues on the UKIPT take an extra 3% rake out of the prize pool "for staff" as well, so I put 2 and 2 together, and possibly made 5...

The numbers for the first DTD £500 probably went up as well due to novelty value and a decent guarantee. People will take a punt the first time around. Whether it's sustainable long term is another thing. DTD seem to just about be running it at the moment but I think they're very much at the ceiling of what they can run as a monthly competition.

Myself I can afford to play it now and then (that is maybe a few times a year). And i'll reserve those times for when it's "supersized". The standard monthly one doesn't interest me - especially when the guarantee is the same as the old £300.

I'd like to see the UKIPT stay at £700 (though I preferred it at £500) but that's purely for selfish reasons as i'll play the Nottingham leg if it's at that price. I can see it going up to £1,000 though and given the arguments on this thread don't think that would necessarily be a bad thing.


On a slightly different note though let's consider £500 vs £1,000. A couple of people have pointed out that people will play the £1,000 as it'll have a bigger prizepool.

I don't totally agree.

For the sake of simplicity let's say a £500 comp generates a £100,000 first prize and a £1,000 comp generates a £200,000 first prize.

To me those top prizes are essentially the same. I consider them both to be "a lot". I would be ecstatic at winning either of them.

However, there is a world of difference between £500 and £1,000 given the current state of my bank account.

Therefore I would play the £500 comp but not the £1,000 comp. As strange as it might sound the extra £500 does not justify the extra £100,000.

+1 To this, basically the £500 we can flick in if we want, the £1k is a sat 'in/ sell 50%/ or fade for me

yet to see anyone post on what would be better for the tour on a whole rather than personal interests, apart from keys and bram, im sure they are hoping that it becomes a £3k+ buyin in the future which attracts players from abroad

What's best for the tour is high a % of recreational players as possible imo.

 I posted a suggestion as to how the legs could be squeezed into 3 days rather than four. My idea would get more hands per hour for everyone, would keep the structure the same and would mean recreationals would have to take less time off work.

 It wasn't self-interest as I never make the final and I'm a massive nit who would really prefer 11-handed.

Lol, it was a good suggestion but unfortunately I can't see it ever catching on, given that it hasn't already. Has it been shown that it definitely works? Because even at the same venue they still make the 1k a 10/11handed yawnfest-crapshoot every year.

Even if it does work, you have to convince card room managers used to thinking in the short term: "I have 96 players on 12 tables, I could make them 10 handed and then have 2 dealers for cash". Even if you did manage to change their minds, its a dead cert they would have players complaining at them about cash game lists and demanding to know why the tourn can't go 10 handed.

Then make it a freeroll...

Every year something will change, and the proof will be (as they say) in the pudding.

If stars make it a £1k and it bombs, they'll change it back to £700 most likely.

Skolsuper i'll say it again in reference to tournaments in Europe....demographics.

You really can't compare the UK and Italy when it comes to poker, casinos in the UK are typically shit new warehouses that attract people with not much money. Casino's in Italy are amazingly grand places, quite often the nut place to hangout in an evening and thus attract people with a boat load of money.

I think the UKIPT is pretty good as it is, and to change too much would alienate the people who have made it such a success.

If Stars wanted to enter into the almost untouched ~£2k UK market, why not do it under the Full Tilt brand. Would be fresh and feel like a new tour, rather than an adaption of an old one.

Who is the ~£2k market in the UK? I wish we had one but outside of pros we don't really :(

Your probably rite, but theyre still gonne be able to put a chunk of people in through sattelites, and you would get people travelling from the European circuit to play if the locations were chosen well/ coincided with other big events.

 I think stars could put on a £2k buy in event bi monthly or quarterly if they wanted to. I don't think they would struggle to get over 100 runners and if you are going to get 50%+ of the field from online sats it will make it more likely that the traveling European players will make the effort as well.

This is pretty much what happened with the EPT isn't it? Kept nudging up the buy-ins until they got a bit high then levelled out. Perfectly reasonable to experiment with this. It either works or it doesn't. And it's pretty easy to fix on the fly.

Presumably if they raise it from £770 to £1070 it's hard to say they are being greedy. Surely it's just a case of trying to boost the prizepool.

Play every leg at Dtd for the biggest prize pools.

If the buyin goes up 40%, do you think the PP will? I just can't see it happening, I can see hardly any improvement whatsoever to all PP's on the UKIPT tour.

Keep the great structure. All the blind levels and one hour clock. It what keeps the UKIPT in the top tier of tours.

Hi all,

Thank you again for all the feedback.

I think it is clear that it is impossible to please all of the people all of the time but we will certainly look at any changes from all possible angles and hopefully come up with something that gives a great customer experience across the entire community of UK & Irish poker players.

Quick update on Bristol:

We already have well in excess of 250 players pre-registered for the event and are expecting Day 1B to be extremely busy/sell out. We would advise that you pre-book your seat if you can only play Day 1B.

Please note that you can only buy-in to the main event and the high roller using your PokerStars account.


Thanks all,

Jamie