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Full Tilt Poker Game #31635657720: Table Afterburner (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:17:47 WET - 2012/12/11 [06:17:47 ET - 2012/12/11]
Seats: 6
Seat 1: petyka910 ($138.90)
Seat 2: narak mak mak ($49.10)
Seat 3: cretiiino ($275.25)
Seat 4: KoReaNcHoBO ($105)
Seat 5: 0___Fu___0 ($29.70)
Seat 6: theGrooouuuch ($102.50)
theGrooouuuch posts the small blind of $0.50
petyka910 posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to theGrooouuuch [Kc Ad]
narak mak mak has 8 seconds left to act
narak mak mak folds
cretiiino raises to $3
KoReaNcHoBO folds
0___Fu___0 folds
theGrooouuuch raises to $10
petyka910 folds
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino calls $7
*** FLOP *** [Ks Jc Qc] (Total Pot: $21, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch bets $13.65
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino calls $13.65
*** TURN *** [Ks Jc Qc] [5s] (Total Pot: $48.30, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch has 15 seconds left to act
theGrooouuuch has requested TIME
theGrooouuuch ?



I have no reads on the guy other than he's playing a fair amount of hands, and has 4bet my sb 3bet after opening the btn once.  He seems to have some kind of clue but be a bit sticky post flop.

My thoughts on the turn were that he can flat the flop with quite a lot of pair + draw type hands (JT/QT/KT, J9/Q9/K9, Kxcc, AJ/AQ) since he's opening a fair amount from mp and would probably 4bet QQ/KK and AK pre, and possibly 4bet JJ a non 0% of the time too considering how high my 3bet % is (15%) and that we already have a small amount of dynamic and i think I'm generally seen as VERY 3betty and pretty aggro so that combined with the fact that he's already shown he's willing to 4bet probably means that it's not absurd to assume he can have a wide 4bet for value range.

Also, what do we think he does with his two pair hands on the flop, do you think he raises in order not to see bad turns that will kill the action (clubs, 9's, T's and A's).

Does anybody think that betting 40% or less on the turn and folding to a jam is feasible? With the goal of charging the pair+draw hands I mentioned and "finding out where we are" vs his JJJ/KQ/KJ/AT hands?

Does anybody think that betting 55%+ on the turn is best in order to charge the same pair+draw and fd hands as before but for more $$ (surely he wont fold those hands if we bet $32 here) and then call it off getting 4/1?

Does anybody check fold?

I barrell turn and c/c river to let him bluff just incase he missed - I guess we need to leave 40 back for the illusion of f/e

if he jams turn i probs sigh call it off and hope we out run his 2pr holdings - cant see him holding many sets

Keep vbetting til he folds/raises.
Just so many combos out there. Need to charge to draw.
Pretty happy folding to aggression and chk calling river brick if he flats turn

Are we really deep enough to bet/fold the turn? If we bet $32 and he ships we're going to have to call $50 into $200... Surely we have enough equity to call it off.

no - not folding

No cant really bf turn. Makes what I said so contradicting.
Hopefully we get to see result post turn.

The 3 bet seems big pre? Check the flop.  Also has the advantage of balancing our stuff that misses.

I hate checking here with no real dynamic with the guy. There is just so much he can call with on the flop that we lose so much value from by checking when he checks back. At some point with this guy I'm going to have to balance, but bear in mind that it's rush so you can go thousands of hands and not actually develop that much dynamic with someone.

And we're OOP 100bbs deep, I don't know any cash game player who would 3bet to smaller than this OOP. We lose so much value, we could even make it bigger pre flop.

3bet size is fine obviously... this is a 100bb cash game hand, not a 40bb tournament hand!

Cbetting flop is fine, it works both for value and protection. I would not expect villain to ever raise this flop.

Sizing on the flop seems a little wrong IMO, since it leaves very awkward stacks on the turn. This may not be a big deal of course, but it is something to think about. If you want to bet three streets then you should bet slightly less on the flop, planning to bet ~half pot turn and jam river.

However, given the texture of the flop and the fact that we are OOP, I prefer a different line here: betting  close to pot on the flop planning to jam the turn for a slight overbet. We don't actually gain anything from there being any money left to bet on the river - all gains from having a river bet left are felt by villain, not us.

This bet flop/jam turn line works really well for our whole range of course... i.e. if we have a set or a flush draw then it is very 'clean' to jam the turn.

This is an interesting idea, and I'm going to give it some thought. Seems like it could be an interesting weapon to whip out.

Also I think I agree about my flop sizing, my thoughts at the time were that he is going to have a lot of hands which he can call, therefore I should bet big to charge those hands. Upon reflection although there is credit to this line of thought, I think I do need to take a little bit more care in my sizing in order to set up stacks better on future streets.

Overall I think I do a decent enough job of this, but this pot is an example of where I haven't.

Thanks for the input.

Guess this is a decent enough time to post the results.

*** TURN *** [Ks Jc Qc] [5s] (Total Pot: $48.30, 2 Players)
theGrooouuuch has 15 seconds left to act
theGrooouuuch has requested TIME
theGrooouuuch bets $28.25
cretiiino has 15 seconds left to act
cretiiino raises to $251.60, and is all in
theGrooouuuch calls $50.60, and is all in
cretiiino shows [Qd Kd]
theGrooouuuch shows [Kc Ad]
Uncalled bet of $172.75 returned to cretiiino
*** RIVER *** [Ks Jc Qc 5s] [9s] (Total Pot: $206, 2 Players, 1 All-In)
cretiiino shows two pair, Kings and Queens
theGrooouuuch shows a pair of Kings
cretiiino wins the pot ($203) with two pair, Kings and Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $206 | Rake $3
Board: [Ks Jc Qc 5s 9s]
Seat 1: petyka910 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: narak mak mak didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cretiiino showed [Qd Kd] and won ($203) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 4: KoReaNcHoBO didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: 0___Fu___0 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: theGrooouuuch (small blind) showed [Kc Ad] and lost with a pair of Kings

check fold flop he's got two pair met

This is the problem with playing on the world wide web, you can't see into their eyes.

If you have no reads on Villain, i think you should go on the assumption that he wont call ur 3 bet light from this spot 100bbs deep. So there is little value in betting turn. As played i would c/f turn. When villain puts any more money in you are doing v badly vs a tight pf range.

Im going to look really results orientated but was genuinely going to throw c.f turn out there.

b/c defo better than c/cc though I really dont know tbh wats best

I actually think the opposite of this is true. Because this is rush poker and it's a small player pool all playing loads of hands with each other, the entire ecosystem changes when one person is very aggressive pre flop, because that person forces everybody else to play at their speed and out of their comfort zone. This creates a sort of ripple reaction which affects everybody not just the person that I'm 3betting. People no longer have the option to play hands like they are used to because other people are doing things that they don't usually do to combat my strat so they are now in lots of different situations that they don't have a lot of experience dealing with (which is why I love this strategy so much). This results in people making wider peels when they are in position, 4betting more when they are out of position (and when it's late position action) and just generally loosening up.

Because of this I think check/fold is not a viable option WITHOUT reads. if I knew that the guy is a tight player then you are totally right and we can consider check/folding because he'll probably check back all of the hands that we beat (AJ/AQ, KT-JT, XXcc and a couple of other random hands) and only bet with the made hands that have us crushed. I did explain in the OP the fact that I thought he would 4bet QQ/KK/AK and JJ a % of the time pre flop, so I feel like you haven't really put much thought into your post saying that he has "a tight range on the flop" because surely if you think that he is only peeling strong hands pre then he can't have a straight or QJ/KJ for two pair. Which only leaves KQ (and JJ a %) as a hand we're losing to (and ATss, I don't know whether you consider that a strong hand or not).
Also, just for future reference, if I thought the guy was a nit and was peeling a tight range I would have included that in the OP.

It is really difficult to describe the dynamic in these games without recording a video to show how the ecosystem has reacted to my very 3betty style, but what I've discovered from my first 50k hands is that people peel a lot in position since I 3bet such a high % and they get a frustrated by this which in turn makes them a little more stubborn.

At this stage in my dynamic with "cretiiino" I've been 3betting him a lot and he's clearly aware of this as evidence by his btn 4bet earlier and I think it's very safe to assume he is going to peel quite a lot of the royal connectors and AJ/AQ kind of hands.

But like I said, it's difficult to describe since I'm the only person who sees it. It's pretty remarkable what a player pool of 50-80 people does when you 3bet them relentlessly.

It's just a lame hand really. When you bet and he flats he's owned you into you giving him 100 bigs. It's cash, exchange of money happens a lot and this is one of those spots.

However if he raises the flop you can be like "ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuun".

This was my first reaction too.

Tbh when I bet the flop I just hope he folds. Really don't want to see a turn

I would also say when you bet call turn you are stuck getting it in with <20% equity almost always