blonde poker forum

- UK is a older generation

- Typical gambler no interest in horses

- Shops empty (how long have the shops got?!)

- Bigger profits elsewhere

The lady who served me mentioned all this & said it soon will see a lot less horse racing. Will we be soon be seeing closure of some tracks too?

There isn't even much evening racing these days, although might be down to time of year?

An interesting question, Aaron. My peripheral perspective:

There is still racing 360-odd days of the year and pretty much everyone is within an hour of a course.

Poor economic times have affected everyone and everything, where a lavish day out at the osses is one of the first things to be cut. Businesses everywhere feel the squeeze so it's hardly surprising that a few courses have gone down.

The availability of other places and ways to bet has existed for a generation now so I think rumours of racing's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

My response to your question is we won't know until the economy picks up and we see where - when they have it - people spend their money.

It'll take a while to go, but i think its on the way out too. 30 years or so though easy. Plus we might see some international racing etc then, dont know enough about it to comment mch more than that.

Morning Aaron.

I think you have got the thread title wrong. Instead of "how long has horse racing got left?" it should have read "how long have betting shops got left?".

B & M betting shops ARE dying, but betting on horse racing is massively up year on year, but most betting is now done on the internet. Online Gaming is experiencing massive growth, B & M LBO's are, I'm sorry to say, not.

As LBO's, they wil not exist in 20 years. The overheads relative to Online Gaming are hugely out of line. Online Gaming does not have to worry about rent, rates, property maintenance, utility costs, or barely even staff.

Betting on racing is going up year on year? In the UK? Surprised.

As long as they are allowed roulette machines they will continue to stay open.

I'd never seen a sportsbook until recently** - is there a legislative barrier to UK Casinos operating something similar in their premises? Or is it just about the profitable utilisation of space?


thin ;-)

True, but not on the proceeds of horse racing betting, which was Aaron's point.

The lady is right, it has been announced that Hereford and Folkestone are closing, though it may be temporary.  Great Leighs failed too.   But the big tracks seem busier than ever.  Cheltenham seems to get more popular by the year and I know Chester is way more popular now than it was when I used to go 20 years ago.

There is an obvious impediment to evening racing at this time of year.  They bring racing forward a couple of hours from around December to February so that the last race finishes when it is light.  I have been places where it can be getting dark when the last one goes off and I assume that is why it is often a bumper.

From a betting shop owners perspective UK horse racing is the most expensive product in the shop and yet has by far the lowest profit margin.

It's probably a loss leader for 90%+ of betting shops but gets people through the door to bet on other products like dogs and cartoons. I think if the roulette machines were banned more than half of shops would be unviable which would lead to massive horse racing levy reductions. So in a way the roulette machines are propping up UK horse racing.

Did you know that betting shops pay the tracks £6000 per race?

I believe it's unsustainable in it's present format.

In 10-15 years only the top tracks will survive.

Betting levy revenue will decline and media rights for live pictures
will not be so valuable because the younger generation are not, in
general , interested in horse racing.

Most youngster's just want a quick fix and cant be bothered to study
form. Roulette gives them an opportunity to spin up £20 by just picking
a few numbers and getting lucky.

One thing I miss when going racing now is that you can't "pinch" a
price like you could 5-10 years ago. All the bookies work off betfair
and they all have the same odds. Half the fun of going racing was
running up and down the rows of bookies trying to nick a
 1/4 or 1/2 a point. It didn't really matter if the horse won
it was the battle against the bookies which counted.

Attendances have held up quite well over the last few years but
I will be amazed if the BHB can reverse the mindset of the younger
generation, the impact of internet/mobile betting apps and the loss
of live racing pictures in betting offices.

Is there a noticeable decline in the amount of money placed on horse races on Betfair?
Would that even make the difference as to how long horse racing has left?

Thats the key part Jim.....


I believe it's unsustainable in it's present format.

In 10-15 years only the top tracks will survive.

We all think it sad when the gaffs such as Folkestone close down, but hell, what sort of business model can sustain all that land & infrastructure  cost on half a dozen meetings a year? It's unthinkable to think they can survive, & tracks like that won't, sad as it may be.

But that does not mean Horse Racing will not survive - it will, it has been here well over a hundred years & it will easily manage another 100. It is a global thing now.

Greyhound Racing....not so much. Again, sad, but inevitable. The economics will slowly strangle it to death. 

Unfortunately....I'm the Folkestone of the Betting shops :(

Costs spiralling out of control while revenue and profit margin go
in the other direction.

You never see a poor bookie....... ;D

Within a couple of years all the big offshore companies will be forced to get a uk license and pay uk betting duty - presumably this will increase racings income?

Me too matey.
Took 1.3 million over the counter and basically made fuck all apart from my salary. Used to get a nice divi too.

Thank goodness for roulette.

I started talking to the lady behind the counter about that first & she said she wasn't overly worried about closure of shops, but more so of horse racing.

She went onto say about shops that are either machine, horse racing or football shops.

After all, I was the only person in shop putting a decent sized bet on for a couple of hour. It seems amazing that the machines are probably the item that are keeping the shops open, after a few months of not using this machines, I hit them a couple of days and terribly disappointed with myself, which perhaps brought the chat on.

Tikay, did you know that Hinge was the 1st female bookmaker in London and she used to step out with William Hills son?

when i first started going into bookies there was a different crowd to what you see now. Most of the people were there for horse racing, you can end up chatting with old wise men about past punts or bad beats for hours, now its just gangs of losers around the machines and the odd person actually betting..I avoid.

Why would any one actually go into a betting shop these days?

Acidmouse is right.

I guess the shops in poorer areas will survive on mug punters but alot will close.

The only reason they are probably still open is the older generation don't want to use technology & the machines are their biggest asset.

Some people find having loads of apps dangerous. A friend told me the other day he didn't trust himself if he had betting apps. He'd be watching the football and say to himself "ooh we're 100-1 to win 4-1. That's worth a fiver."  And so on.

The technology is making it worse for problem gamblers these days though.

You can bet 24 hours a day on any sport you want and if you don't trust a number generator, then you have some sport somewhere offering odds for a possible punter.

You can even play blackjack on the go now on your smartphone, it is becoming ridic.

Yes - I think there is 2 strands to this:

The first is, as you say, you can bet on something 24 hours a day.  Betfair have loads of weird football matches from all over the world.

The other is the fact you can bet anonymously without anyone seeing you.  If you hand over 10k over the counter and lose you feel like a bit of an imbecile.  If you lose it online using debit card deposits, less so.

you are a million to be able to hand over 10k in any betting shop in england (and get a bet for it :D)

Nothing worse than asking for a chunky bet, then watching the cashier count out the money, knowing a quarter of people in the shop have just seen their largest amount of cash in one place ever. Then, we have the sweat of the extremely loud cashiers phone call, at the desk, in plain sight, despite the obvious back room yards away.

 "Yep, youngish lad, seen him once or twice before. He would like £xK @ 9/4 over 33.5 lengths winning distances at Folkestone" Turns to me; "You can have £50 at 9/4 and the rest at 7/4" "Just the 9/4 please" "Young lad wants  the £50, whats bet reference, ABC123, yep" Numbers get changed, bet gets scanned with reference and handed over. Then you have the wait of watching the cash get counted again and handed back. So tilting.

Although no better feeling when you drive 15 mins down the road, get the rest on and watch it romp home ^.^

Strongly disagree.

Really?  The guys that put on for me struggle to get more than a couple of hundred on almost anything and move shops and areas everyday.

As an unknown your only chance would be that its the worst price available. The guy I worked for had 20+ people running bets for him. He said he'd have retired if he could bet whatever he wanted at prices offered and I don't doubt him

ed, can you name me the shops please, you cant even get it on on the phone

There is a big difference between laying punters to regular stakes and laying arbers.

Arbers drawing dead for any decent amount.

The guy I worked for wasn't an arber (that's an aside in case you directed towards me)

Just speaking with my bookmakers hat on for a second.....I actually dont mind arbers and I tend to use them when I want to get a position or get some buyback from a big bet I have taken etc but I do understand why a lot of people don't want or like them.  Generally speaking you simply get no value from them and it is a total one way street.  They will only bet when they can get a bet on the other side and they never give any action.  They are a bit like the nits of the sports betting world.  Of course the reason a lot of firms dont like them is because they are generally winners but that doesn't really bother us so long as the punters playing us dont take unfair shots and give us a bit of action on our main markets.

When i helped someone 'put on' for a big punter we must of had 100 telephone accounts close within 18 months.
Sometimes a horse would lose and still get the ban, because the price had tumbled they still ban you, as they think a hit could well be the next bet.
The biggest bet we ever got on in one go was £1500 , often bets of £300-£500 would be refused, so anyone who thinks a person can walk into a high street bookmaker and get 10k is living in cloud cuckoo land. the ywould let you put 10k into the roulette machine tho.
Even if you went to a race meeting you would struggle to get 10k on in one go.

It's just a load of work for zero profit. No crime involved at all. I remember a couple of years ago I took on a guy over 3 months on football singles only. He staked over 200k in bets between £300 and £1200 and I "won" £28. It actually reduced my GP % by a right chunk for the year. To be fair he was hoping I would win to keep laying him but we gave it every chance.

It's like playing break even poker. The rake will kill you.

To go back to the thread title racings problem is that they signed up to being funded by the gambling industry and now, since betfair, we bookies are none too happy with the margins and therefore try to get punters to bet on anything that is not UK horse racing. Funding will drop and drop until there is an industry SP or it is made illegal to hedge into betfair from the track.

Could you not arb too? Free info

Not really as I would just end up having my trade accounts closed down. the arbs are not nailed on winners just work out as 100% book selections. They also take some finding so I do take my hat off to these fellas. the problem is getting on enough to make the back/lay worthwhile. In theory it should not matter if the selection wins or loses although most good arbers always want them to lose to enable them to get on again.

its a lot harder for arbers now as no one really lays racing post prices any more for good money and oddschecker etc. are updated by the minute.

Actually thinking about it I suppose I did used to arb. i would punt pricewise channel 4 horses on a Friday night knowing I would lay them shorter next day. got bored with that though!

The best arbers these days are all technologically savvy and have automated 90% of the process.  If I type in a price wrong now on football I will have taken a string of bets on it before I have finished putting in the next match so literally 15-20 seconds later and the best/smartest arbers seem to have designed software which doesnt take advantage of wrong prices ie obvious errors as they know it can cost them accounts.  I think the days of manual arbers making a proper living are pretty much done because the computer guys are just so fast and will take very thin margins and still make a lot of money.  For sure we have guys that have made $30-40k in the last year from us alone.  Add in another 5-10 bookies they can do the same with and it is a lot of money these guys are making.  One guy of my acquaintace employs 15-20 people now.

Story of degen gambler today in Ireland.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1220/1224328044371.html
He was able to get 40K euros on a Norwegian womens football match! No problem getting on, if you're a mug.

There is one part of the article that doesn't make sense though;
"The court heard O’Reilly had developed a chronic gambling problem and he had an account called “Tony Ten” with Paddy Power Bookmakers. When the account was examined it was found that over the period in question it had a turnover of €10 million, with €8.3 million in winnings and €1.7 million in losses."

That suggests to me he won 6.6m euros! But I think he just lost the entire 1.75m he stole. So he won 8.3m and lost 10m.

Anyway, the thing is, I find it highly irresponsible of the bookmaker taking all that money from a guy who is clearly a mug. There is NO WAY they would be taking 40k on a Norwegian womens football match from anybody with half a clue.

Must be the same guy, surely?!?!

Apologies, my comment was rather brief and overly simplistic.

What I should have said is "I know (of) people who are happily accommodated £10k cash bets in shop if they want such a bet".

You and I both know such a situation is rather specific (history, event, selection etc.)... but my original point (sort of) stands ;)

Pretty certain it isn't.  Guy I am talking about employs 15-20 but they are mainly tech guys/coders etc rather than people to get him on as such.  That said I know of 3-4 groups operating in London alone with those kind of numbers at their disposal.  It isn't as rare as you would think but I am not sure how effective the 'having people in shops' approach is these days.  When I was back in the UK last week I had a beer with the guy that  helps me out and he effectively said he is generally good for 3 or 4 bets in Hills and Corals shops because they have photos of him now after which he will be refused a bet completely.  This is a massive change from 3-4 years ago imo.