blonde poker forum

Lets liven PHA up with some Pot Limited OMAHAHAHAHA hands, I would like to encourage everyone who has an opinion, irrespective of your experience/stakes etc to post it, also - if you don't like my plays please say so as you could very well be right! Comment an any part of any hand (doesnt have to be any hand, or every street on a specific hand) ask me any questions and flame me to your hearts desire!

***** Hand History for Game 3581165846 ***** (IPoker)
$400.00 USD PL Omaha - Thursday, January 03, 05:30:49 ET 2013
Table Herbs (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: liveer ( $162.00 USD )
Seat 3: HERO ( $850.00 USD )
Seat 5: drawgle22 ( $402.00 USD )
Seat 6: kcobain5 ( $729.70 USD )
Seat 8: RedChairs ( $421.50 USD )
Seat 10: donjuan30 ( $390.00 USD )
MakeItRaaain posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
drawgle22 posts big blind [$4.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [  Tc Kh Qd Ts ]
kcobain5 calls [$4.00 USD]
RedChairs folds
donjuan30 calls [$4.00 USD]
liveer calls [$4.00 USD]
HERO calls [$2.00 USD]
drawgle22 checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qc, Jc,  Aspades ]
HERO checks
drawgle22 checks
kcobain5 checks
donjuan30 checks
liveer bets [$20.00 USD]
HERO calls [$20.00 USD]
drawgle22 folds
kcobain5 folds
donjuan30 folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ac ]
HERO bets [$40.00 USD]
liveer calls [$40.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
HERO bet [$140.00 USD]
liveer calls [$89.00]

(he had $89 left pot was $140)


***** Hand History for Game 3579485135 ***** (IPoker)
$400.00 USD PL Omaha - Wednesday, January 02, 11:50:16 ET 2013
Table Hosen (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 6 is the button
Seat 1: THEDONKDONK ( $451.36 USD )
Seat 3: bhxk798 ( $673.50 USD )
Seat 5: HERO ( $545.10 USD )
Seat 6: PlayWithMeAgain ( $1236.90 USD )
Seat 8: Hapycamp ( $402.00 USD )
Seat 10: MrTuuuuurn ( $400.00 USD )
Hapycamp posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
MrTuuuuurn posts big blind [$4.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [  Kc Ks 8h Jc ]
THEDONKDONK raises [$14.00 USD]
bhxk798 folds
HERO calls [$14.00 USD]
PlayWithMeAgain folds
Hapycamp folds
MrTuuuuurn calls [$10.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, 8d, 4h ]
MrTuuuuurn checks
THEDONKDONK bets [$33.00 USD]
HERO raises [$104.00 USD]
MrTuuuuurn folds
THEDONKDONK calls [$71.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
THEDONKDONK checks
HERO bets [$178.00 USD]

I think this is really interesting. This opponent playing 38(Vpip) 11(PFR), he limps 25% early position and raises 9% (so we assume he has very good hand PF when he pots UTG)


***** Hand History for Game 3581196383 ***** (IPoker)
$200.00 USD PL Omaha - Thursday, January 03, 05:53:12 ET 2013
Table Cree (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Seat 1: VILLIAN ( $441.33 USD )
Seat 5: drawgle22 ( $200.00 USD )
Seat 6: ImJustAnAddict ( $181.25 USD )
Seat 8: HERO ( $396.67 USD )
Seat 10: PoooooooooooooW ( $172.00 USD )
VILLIAN posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
drawgle22 posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [  2c Ks 2h Kc ]
ImJustAnAddict folds
HERO raises [$7.00 USD]
PoooooooooooooW folds
VILLIAN calls [$6.00 USD]
drawgle22 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jh, 2s, 4d ]
VILLIAN bets [$10.00 USD]
HERO calls [$10.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
VILLIAN checks
HERO bets [$25.00 USD]
VILLIAN calls [$25.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 9c ]
VILLIAN bets [$64.00 USD]
HERO

^ $350 back in stacks before the river bet. The opponent in this hand is a very good reg, who I know very well/talk a lot of pokers with...

I actually think these hands are fun also.

***** Hand History for Game 3581205304 ***** (IPoker)
$400.00 USD PL Omaha - Thursday, January 03, 05:59:46 ET 2013
Table Humor (No DP 50 bb min) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Seat 1: pigbussy ( $249.20 USD )
Seat 3: HERO ( $400.00 USD )
Seat 5: ImOnAButt ( $402.00 USD )
Seat 6: RedChairs ( $1287.40 USD )
Seat 10: drawgle22 ( $138.00 USD )
ImOnAButt posts small blind [$2.00 USD].
RedChairs posts big blind [$4.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [  2c 9d Qd Jh ]
drawgle22 folds
HERO raises [$12.00 USD]
ImOnAButt raises [$38.00 USD]
RedChairs folds
HERO calls [$28.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 8c, 4c ]
ImOnAButt bets [$44.00 USD]
HERO calls [$44.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
ImOnAButt checks
HERO checks
** Dealing River ** [ 5d ]
ImOnAButt checks
HERO bets [$120.00 USD]
ImOnAButt calls [$120.00 USD]

No reads, guy playing lots of tables, full stacked and seems kinda aggro

im happy to post as class clown (<100 hands life time) if there are clowns in your hands

SAY WHAT YOU SEE!

Can we have a street by street breakdown of the plan and reasons for it..?

As a confirmed Omaha fish I dont understand how having certain hand textures affects our prospects pre and post flop..

sure which hand?

I just have no fking idea.


first hand why you lead that turn, leading turn betting river seems v thin for value but I have no clue.

KK82 surely if he doesn't fold hands on the turn we've had a mare and shouldn't be raising flop into his strong range even with blockers and bds.

the kk22 is like well we have a set I don't want to jam but i'm probably too fishy to fold river.


QJ92 I literally have no clue. so yeh nothing changes, and i've provided little to no help. marv.

Good place to start! I'm bluffing in this hand, on the turn and the river I want him to fold KT, or (perhaps ambitiously) a flush, although I think he has a flush rather less than we'd think unless he has KT with a flush because seems odd to bet a naked non-nut FD on the flop, I have the Tc so he cant have made a royal on me.

First hand I play it like you til the river, but you gotta give it up once he calls turn but the biggest thing for me would be his stack size. Shorties are just never gonna fold in that spot even if he has like 1 5 hi flush. But when im at the river I dont think straight so ill just stick him in and then punch my face once he calls.

Second hand, its probably my weakest are of my PLO game. When I call a raise with aces/kings or queens and the board is similar to that when I c-bet they raise and ive gotta bin it or they'll call and unless i hit a helpful turn card (draw/set) Im just pissing money away. Its obv a lot worse oop.
In your hand what do you do if he raises your flop bet?

3rd hand would he play jjxx like that?

surely if he's sitting short and therefore may be assumed to not be as strong as someone who standardly sits full then we aren't likely going to make him fold 5 of one colour, which seems to be what effects our profitability of the river bet the most.

it takes me like 5 mins looking at AQJ6 and the board and your hand to work out who even wins ffsstupid game

yh, you're right about the shorties - how often do you actually think he has a flush here? given that he bet the flop and he didn't have the NFD? I don't see random shot-stacks stab these boards with like  Ahrt 9c 8c 5d or hands like that, he could certainly have  Kc  Td  8c  6h or a hand like that and as you say, wouldn't expect him to fold it, although ofc would be a perfectly reasonable spot to fold! I have two of the tens though, and he defo could have a boat, lol.


if he raises me OTF, I would fold, not sure exactly what he has, but he's repping strong, I'm repping strong and a third bet is going in so he's obv got something good :P yh i feel like we can get put into guessing games on some turns (board pairs speshly are the tilting ones) so a raise sort of works as a mergey-type play where we may very well get ACES to fold (OTT if not OTF) and we protect our hand (likely best atm) and could end up getting some value (lol) however I think to analyse this play properly we have to consider the merits/cons of calling the flop bet, which is undoubtedly the "stnd" play here, and stnd plays are stnd for very good reason usually.

Anyone wanna go for it?


IDK - what do you think? I've never seen this sort of play with top set, but this isn't a particularly usual spot, lets say he has JJ, what do you think of that line?

Will explain this hand a little further see if I can't "poke the fire" :P and try back it up with some maths, you'll have to excuse me though I'm kinda bad with this stuff, and this is the first time I've done it.

Pre-flop is very stnd vs a player with these stats, he's raising 9% UTG (JUST AA** combo's - all of which we assume he'll open - account for nearly 3% of hands, so we can actually assume pretty accurately that he'll have AA** around 33% of the time here) so 3betting seems kinda pointlless when a third of the time he'll 4bet and we'll fold, calling, hoping to go multi-way and hitting a king is imo the better play here, imo - if anyone wants to make an argument for 3bet/folding then go for it! That's an argument that can be made as well - I could certainly be convinced (I think).

The other make-up off his 9% range UTG (obviously we aren't super accurate here, he might well value hands differently to what is mathematically correct, I myself am always surprised with certain hands ranked above others in "order") is made up of ~11,000 combo's and the vast majority of these are A[KK-JJ]X hands (big pairs with an Ace and a suit) AK[Q-J]X with n ace high suit, KQJT type hands and connected double pairs - if anyone is overly interested and board and would like to the entire range, then I have copied it our for you here!

So it's a fortunate spot because its very easy to accurately assign a pretty easy to calculate PF range, the same of hands I have is 2,600~ which if you account for the times we'll have played 3-5 handed prolly gives us around 500 UTG situations, we can be fairly confident that our assumptions on his range are at the very least somewhere in the right direction.

So, using the range 7%!AA**, AA**(this basically means top 7% excluding AA combos, and ALL AA** combo's - the reason imputing it this way is more reliable than just doing a straight 9% is that bizarrely not every AA combo is a top 9% hand (although that could be wrong, but if you're ever doing 4 or 5% ranges you must do it like this, every AA combo will be opened,but all hands in "top X% excluding AA" will aswell so a (e.g.) 6% range is often more hands than an actual top 6% range, if that makes sense) I've increased from 6 to 7% as I think it'll likely be wider than my stats suggest for a player who is quite a lot loser in later positions and I know the loser the pre-flop range the more pressure it'll put on the play that I made mathematically)

A straight equity run of the flop spot.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.05 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Tc 8d 4h
PLAYER_1 7%!AA**, AA**
PLAYER_2 KcKsJc8h
600000 trials (randomized)


All-in Equity
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=2%3A|Percent|0%3A|KcKsJc8h|7%25%21AA%2A%2A%2C%20AA%2A%2A&chxt=y%2Cx%2Cx&chxp=2%2C50&chco=00aa00&chbh=a&chm=N%2A%2A%25%2C000000%2C0%2C%2D1%2C12%2C0%2Cr&chds=0%2C57&chxr=1%2C0%2C57&chs=400x95&cht=bhs&chd=t%3A56%2E7977%2C43%2E2023&chma=|10)

We only need 30% to profitably continue (slightly more ofc, due to the risk of the player behind) but either way we've got plenty of equity, were IP, the pot-to-stack ratio will still be 3.5+ on the turn and our range certainly hits this flop a little more "in the face" than our opponents, what this meas ofc is that this really is a great spot to JUST CALL, most of the striaght cards (7's and 9's in specific) are great cards for us to barrel and J's, 8's, K's l give us the best hand (almost certainly), clubs are good to bet  as are T's if we are checked to + ofc we have the option to pot control/showdown if we deem it nessercary.

This is why calling is the "stnd" play, it's unquestionably a profitable move.

Maldini you said this

Actually I'm going to disagree (although I certainly agree that it feels that way when you just bin one bet off and the turn is a sort of guessing game and you have to fold) It's not actually pissing money away in this example - once he bets the turn again this affects two things, firstly his range is now a lot stronger (he'd chk/fold the bottom X% of his range) which means, secondly, now we need a much stronger hand from our range to continue with - if you look at how his equity increases on each turn card

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.05 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Tc 8d 4h
PLAYER_1 AA**, 7%!AA**
PLAYER_2 KcKsJc8h
600000 trials (randomized)


Equity breakdown by turn card for PLAYER_1
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=2%3A|Percent|0%3A|2c|2d|2h|2s|3c|3d|3h|3s|4c|4d|4s|5c|5d|5h|5s|6c|6d|6h|6s|7c|7d|7h|7s|8c|8s|9c|9d|9h|9s|Td|Th|Ts|Jd|Jh|Js|Qc|Qd|Qh|Qs|Kd|Kh|Ac|Ad|Ah|As&chxt=y%2Cx%2Cx&chxp=2%2C50&chco=00aa00&chbh=a&chm=N%2A%2A%25%2C000000%2C0%2C%2D1%2C12%2C0%2Cr&chds=0%2C78&chxr=1%2C0%2C78&chs=400x700&cht=bhs&chd=t%3A74%2E6159%2C76%2E9893%2C77%2E0608%2C62%2E0965%2C15%2E4818%2C14%2E9076%2C63%2E8521%2C66%2E0256%2C65%2E6105%2C53%2E3494%2C35%2E1996%2C39%2E1182%2C39%2E1875%2C71%2E8621%2C74%2E4823%2C75%2E1770%2C58%2E3774%2C60%2E7746%2C62%2E1173%2C49%2E7788%2C14%2E5298%2C15%2E5587%2C59%2E6168%2C62%2E7515%2C62%2E3354%2C49%2E7823%2C63%2E0758%2C66%2E4797%2C66%2E7024%2C52%2E2996%2C62%2E9853%2C65%2E8542%2C65%2E8191%2C52%2E1678%2C63%2E0126%2C65%2E3278%2C54%2E7644%2C61%2E6409%2C64%2E3858%2C65%2E0252%2C50%2E7049%2C60%2E9051%2C64%2E7870%2C65%2E3658%2C50%2E3696&chma=|10)


Now are KK becomes a very desirable hand to fold (and remember we ARE going to have to fold some hands, some of the time on the turn in this spot)

Whereas this all provides a very good argument for calling, as the optimal play I'm going to try explain why, in game, I thought this might be a good spot to raise - then try back it up.

Knowing what I know about his PRE-FLOP range, and this is a fortunate example because his stats are very simple, I felt OTF that his range was dominated by high cards, Aces and other big pairs, whereas he certainly has combo's of sets and big wraps in his pre-flop range they make up a very small % of it. I also felt that I was likely "behind" to his range at this moment, if i'd have guessed I'd have said 40/60~ prolly (sick brags I :P ) I also know I'd be venreable to getting bet off my hand by something like QQ or AK*T (not that this is an exploitation of me, as my range is plenty strong enough on a variety of turn cards to not give him an easy bet with his OP's) I also know that I'm completely obligated to bet most turns that are checked to me and turn my hand into a "bluff."

In short against a range which is extremely unlikely to have better than 1 pair, with a hand that I am forced to bluff with a high% of the time from the turn onwards, I thought - let's try and turn it into a bluff NOW - we're 3 handed (which gives my line additional credibility) IT IS possible to be called by a hand with +/- 5%equity which is also great in  position, and there is the distinct possibility of our flop raise being called and folding to our turn bet (obviously you have to counter this "value" with the times your turn bet gets called and you lose, or you get shipped on and fold where you lose more than you would with an unsuccessful call/bet line, but still given how weak is ACTUAL hand range is I think this is a worthy consideration.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.05 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Tc 8d 4h
PLAYER_1 AA**, 7%!AA**
PLAYER_2 KcKsJc8h
600000 trials (randomized)


What is
the flop hand category for PLAYER_1
(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?chxl=2%3A|Percent|0%3A|SET|TOPTWO|TOPANDBOTTOM|BOTTOMTWO|OVERPAIR|TOPPAIR|POCKET12|SECONDPAIR|POCKET23|THIRDPAIR|UNDERPAIR|NOTHING&chxt=y%2Cx%2Cx&chxp=2%2C50&chco=00aa00&chbh=a&chm=N%2A%2A%25%2C000000%2C0%2C%2D1%2C12%2C0%2Cr&chds=0%2C76&chxr=1%2C0%2C76&chs=400x395&cht=bhs&chd=t%3A6%2E1582%2C0%2E0662%2C1%2E0772%2C0%2E3213%2C1%2E3428%2C0%2E5258%2C8%2E9020%2C75%2E2958%2C0%2E4018%2C1%2E1593%2C1%2E9435%2C2%2E8060&chma=|10)

This graph shows us what "catorgory" of hands our opponent will have how much of the time, as you see my intial (pretty simple lets be honest) thoughts in game were correct and his range is dominated by OP's, of which will have quite stagnant equity for the most part (as in, vs an open range of hands there perceived equity will decrease on a high % of turn cards) giving us significantly more fold equity on the flop, and, importantly if we're to argue this line over calling, on the turn.

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.05 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
Board - Tc 8d 4h
PLAYER_1 AA**, 7%!AA**
PLAYER_2 KcKsJc8h
600000 trials (randomized)


How often do(es)
PLAYER_1 flop hand category at least bottomtwo
6.3283% (37970)

As this shows, we expect to be facing a hand 84 (84 extremely unlikely ofc) or better 6.3% of the time, which again considering how well our range pre-flop connects with this board gives us a spot where (to coin a JB expression) I think we really can "exploit a weak range"

I do feel however, that this is a spot where this specific players weak EP stats have really made this play an easy one for me, (still not saying it's correct) but even in-game I was able to make some very accurate assumptions about his range. This is defo something to consider during analysis of your own game (maybe not so much with the EP opening range as that is very difficult always) but you really wanna try and build ranges in spots that AREN'T going to be easily and quickly basically analsyed by an opponent who is competent reading these stats.

As a development from this post - I have considered for a while a strategy where I limp 100% of hands I wanna play (typically ~11% for me, but would need to be a bit tighter, lets say for e.g. 6-7%) from UTG, and never limp 3bet unless it's to squeeze (limp, iso, call, call etc) or when i can 4bet for high % of my stack with something I wanna do that with. I think its a very interesting idea but yet to have the balls to implement it :P

4 cards is hurting my head, can I just muck two of them on the flop please?

I'd be tempted to stick to 1 hand per thread - seems to get v confusing and a lot to take in (could be my little brain)

In hand 1 the turn seems like a check fold to me. You have straight blockers along with your straight and the turn hits both "draws". The button is only betting into 2 others so it's not like he's not going to bet non straight hands and most of those value hands which aren't a straight just beat you and a short stack seems unlikely to be folding much

If you have to bet turn, def check folding river and he hasn't got the stack left to be folding anything even if it seems he should

you're right karl, carried away!

fwiw I think I actually think calling is better still in the KK hand.

sighs some of my best graph producing seemingly wasted :(

Not at all Dave, cracking stuff, keep it coming please.

I would like to get involved, too, but you think x-teen levels above me.

I may try and Post a few DC situations tomorrow.

Oooh sick! I look forward to it...may be hungover lol

Hand 1 - I'd ch/pot flop with 3 people behind and fe vs the shortstack. I don't know what I make of it as played but I don't think I like the river, seems like we are burning $89. Although I always end up following through otr if I take a line like this because I'm constructing a range for whatever reason and it's just a shame we have the bottom of it.

Hand 2 - I call flop as default because we're IP and our range is stronger than his when we call, thus it should be pretty easy to win the pot a large % of the time. Also it really sucks for us when he makes a thin shove over our flop raise, although I'm not sure how often that happens. Raising is better 3 ways than it is hu and particularly if the other player is short.

Hand 3 - Think this is a raise/fold spot since we're behind his entire value range, I'd expect him to barrel a lot of T8 combos so I'd weight his range towards better sets and air. Probably raise small is best.

Hand 4 - Is good, I prefer this to taking off on the turn and bombing river although you can do that too obviously.

Hand 1:  I personally wouldn't complete pre-flop being out of position to 5 others with a low-ish pair and no flush potential.

Any how, with that turn card and those stacks I think anyone who calls is also going to call the river so I think the best approach if you're going to take a bluff line is to look to check-raise the turn as that way the bluff has the most power and collects more money for the times it succeeds.  And also if he checks back you have a more successful bluffing opportunity on the river, probably betting the same 40 and folding to a raise?

If you are thinking of getting him off the same hand as you I think a smaller turn bet ($30?) would give you more leverage on the river.


Hand 2:  So the opponent doesn't have many TT or 88 in his range except as part of rundowns or double-pairs, and statistically therefore weighted to the rundowns, and given his propensity to limp you've got to think this time he has AA or KK, or a high rundown with 1 or 2 suits, not T8.

Against those hands and with the SB left to act I think a smaller 3B would be good - enough to get the SB to fold and enough to keep the opponent interested, and then folding to a re-raise as the best and unlikely scenario then is a KK chop.

If he calls your 3B he's not likely to love many turn cards and I guess in game this was an awful card for him and he folded?  But you can represent so many more hands on turn cards than he can, so whilst I like your flop raise I don't think it needs to be so big.


I'm not sure I go along with this.  Sure, this is how his equity increases against your hand, but not against your range of hands.

and

I'm not sure I understand this.  Are you saying the opponent knows that there aren't many turn improving cards for him so if he's going to fold it will be on the flop?  Isn't the counter argument that by knowing his equity is static he'd do better by either check-raising or, actually in game, re-raising you - and hence the reason to 3B smaller?

I liked an enjoyed them.  Are you aware of Quadrophobia's site (http://quadrophobia.com/ (http://quadrophobia.com/)) and posts on 2+2.  He really uses PPT to get deep into hand analysis.

I've thought about this some more wanting to justify this against Dave's clear PLO expertise over mine.

I think the problem is that 5 ways there is just too much chance that someone has an over pair, and also with the TTs being at the bottom of the rundown you are more likely to hit bottom set and a wrap rather than top set and a wrap.

Anyway, falling back on PPT with your KQ blockers there just more than 50% chance someone has a higher pair, unless you think someone would raise KK and maybe QQ pre-flop:

ProPokerTools Odds Oracle Results (2.2 Professional) (http://'http://propokertools.com/odds_oracle')
Omaha Hi, Generic syntax
PLAYER_1 KQTT
PLAYER_2 25%!AA
PLAYER_3 25%!AA
PLAYER_4 25%!AA
PLAYER_5 100%!AA
147198 trials (randomized)

How often do(es)
at least 1 player match hand range JJ+
54.7664% (80615)

Good Stuff Kips, IDK who you are but welcome aboard thank you for the time you put into those posts :)


I think how the his equity changes against my HAND and not my range is important for this part of the discussion, the reason for this is because I was trying to distinguish between CALLING, and RAISING on the flop (WITH THIS HAND), calling has been the stnd play and is so because it's practically and theoretically a really sound play - in stnd terms his range vs my range on the turn HE would be losing a lot of equity a lot of the time, and even without a graph you'd fancy someone who's played for a while to realise this intuitively.


Yeh, this effectiveness of the raising play in game is that our opponent wouldn't expect us to raise THIS hand, if we had this hand he'd expect us to call. The benefit of that graph just highlights, what we could prolly have known anyways from looking at his pre-flop stats and that he won't have a VERY STRONG MADE hand on the flop, and even better for us is that ~75% of the time he'll have an OP which will damage his range vs range equity on the turn (as it happens him having the OP IMPROVES his turn range vs hand equity against OUR hand here, and this is why starting to bluff with the hand now came to me as an idea in game)

you're point brings us onto a pretty interesting theoretical point about this hand could play as part of an overall strategy. Obviously we have to have a range of hands that calls this flop, and aside from the slow-played huge hands which we would include some% this hand KKJ8 with a bd fd is one of the best hands to call with, so a few strategical problems we run into already is that we're using one of our "better" calling hands to bluff with we could leave ourself with a pretty un-balannced calling range (actually what's very likely to happen here is our calling range could be TOO STRONG) and we'll struggle to get action on the turn. If our opponent realises we are raising these hands then our adjustment must be to raise/go with 48/T4 on the flop and our hand, Start semi-bluffing with T***+gutters and takee KKJ8 back into our calling range as it's not a hand to bet/call with OTF as we already prved but it has too much equity to be a bluff when we consider that AA dominates our opponents range.

That certainly is a huge argument for calling over raising this hand, in this spot for me.

However working on the assumption that our opponent isn't playing perfectly I still think that raising was a pretty vacuum play - given how our range is stronger than his but we're certainly "losing" even if this spot wasn't the best spot for it ever I think it's a really good example of a really delicate aspect of PLO - and that's considering range vs range equity IP you can make people surrender decent amount of equity to you.

On the flop sizing, he bets $33 into $44 and I make it $104 - he's left with $71 into $292 so my worry is that any smaller would leave me no flop fold equity at all. I could be convinced to change the sizing either way though, would the idea of a smaller flop raise be to bet the turn big, so less fold equity on the flop (he calls nearly always) and then a close to pot turn bet which should give lots of FE?

I think the turn sizing is kinda interesting here. pots $292 and he has $333 back, I chose $178 but when he ships now I need 16% to call and would have had to call off. But it looks (correctly) like im never ever folding on the turn which is why i chose this size, if I have to call off w/e (lol) my friend on skype said to me just after he thought I should bet } $128/fold but still then I only need 22%~  to call and looking at how my equity affects on each turn card I should pretty much be bet/calling every non-Ace card here which certainly adds some merit to your argument of raising the flop smaller


Yes. Very good - you have odds oracle? it's really sick :)

Just wandered into this thread on the train.

That turn card graph is...how can I put this sensitively?...Were I a vetinary surgeon, I would have little difficulty locating canine testes.

Attached is a manhug gentlemanly handshake

Thanks Tal, I don't undersatand your post you're a wordsmith way above my calibre lol but I'm assuming it's a compliment!

Definitely not wasted Dave. They were lovely.

Dog's bollocks.

I fucking love graphs.

 :)  I've read this paragraph, along with the rest of your reply quite a few times now, and whilst I am struggling to fully grasp it I expect/hope the level of thinking you're alluding to is not required at my stakes (50PLO) but by the time I'm ready to move up I will be much more au-fait with it.  For example, I have now started to wonder if I have a un-balanced calling range, but then I also wonder if anyone at my stakes would notice.  (And now I'm getting paranoid that everyone knows this about me and dances gleefully  armed with that knowledge when I sit down..... !)

But seriously, I do find it's interesting though that your conclusion, "take KKJ8 back into our calling range as ... it has too much equity to be a bluff" is the same conclusion someone like me, a player at a lower monetary and thinking level, would come to, but you've come to it from a more involved thought process.   And I do wonder, and am genuinely interested in, to what extent in your games you think your level of thinking is necessary to be a winning player.

On the flop sizing, my thoughts were along the lines of if you want to begin your bluff now, that's fine, but your fold equity will increase more on the turn so make it smaller so that you can bet big on the turn for less, and also save some of that flop money to do it with.   I also think his flop calling range, not that I think he should have much of one, is likely to be impervious to your raise-size.

I now wonder, though, that given that he seems passive, and takes a line of bet-call, check-fold a fairly blank turn, that against this player with his likely hands, getting more dead money into the pot on the flop is a good thing.

Yes I do.  An awesome tool that I know I have only scratched the surface of so far.

Really gd post. im away all day today but will reply tomorrow!

I think the sizing is pretty good in this hand. The problem with making it bigger is that there reaches an inflection point where we now have to call it off vs his range (I don't know what that is, maybe dave could provide us with another graph, hint: it's not that much bigger than we made it). There is a also a problem with us committing more money vs the uncapped range of the third player.

He calls a lot less frequently when we make it bigger so your point about exploiting his passivity by getting him to put more money in the pot which we can win on the turn is moot. We give him 24% raw equity to continue on the flop which obliges him to continue with a large % hands. Really we want to make it a size where he has to fold his hands which have enough equity to continue but zero turn playability - Or call his hands which have enough equity to continue but zero turn playability, whichever way you look at it :p

Ok, these points - good questions imo, obviously there is no way to definitively answer these two questions as we play different games against different players so it's all sort of hypothetical, but I'll give you my personal opinion.

At 50plo, what you're going to find is generally tighter and less "advanced" (kinda cringey expression) play, but what I mean is most of the time people will have pretty much the hands they are repping, what this means is a really exploitative "vacuum- based" strategy will always be immediately more profitable for you (basically just doing whatever is best against the hand you think he has in this specific hand) worrying about how balanced your strategy is shouldnt REALLY be at the forefront of your mind (cos we're trying to make money and there is an immediately more profitable option available) so I guess in simple terms, in answer to your first question how relevant is the theory behind important at 25c/50c - not all that much.

However being range aware and always thinking about your range vs there range, what your hand looks like to your opponent and more importantly thinking about ALL the hands you'll find yourself with in a certain spot and how you would play all of them together - then you're starting to build yourself an overall strategy and even if you constantly go against these thoughts at 25c/50c for more exploitative vacuum plays the fact you're thinking about them will vastly improve your development - and the truth is as well at ALL levels of poker you're going to find good players who even if they aren't thinking about theory in a "galfond-style" way they just have a natural grasp of the basics (you get this with the slightly better recreational plays mostly I find)

Once you've built yourself ranges you'll be very surprised how often "mandatory" plays provide themselves which you think won;'t work but because you've built your ranges well they work a surprising amount of the time - e.g. when i get to a river with T8high or something but I KNOW i have to bluff because of what my range is, I say out loud "fuck I have t bluff here but I think he's calling nearly every time" and those plays have a surprisingly high success rate...I remember railing Rob once (Patonius2000 ^^) a few years back and I said casually mid-hand "can you bluff here" and he said "I can do whatever the fuck I want here" I didn't get it at first lol but basically he's so comfortable with his range in X spot that he has all the options open to him.

Does that make sense?

And final question, how important is it in the games I play? Well, personally I think it's very important - not maybe so important because I worry X reg knows my c/r range on PYZ is too weak or anything liek that but just because I've been playing mid/mid-high stakes online for a while and I see how competitive the games get, I play on sites with much much smaller player pools so have got 30-35,000 hand samples on some regs (they'll likely have on me too) so if I want to stay on top of my game I need to be thinking all the time how to remain alongside or ahead of the best players i'm playing with. The days of logging online and playing some cards expecting to make decent money are gone imo, it'still very much possible to make money from poker but you gotta earn it nowadays.

Game Theory is at the end of the day at the foundation of every hand we play, so if your serious about poker so you should prolly be serious about Game Theory.

Great post. Played 1-2 Omaha yesterday and noticed one of players at the table, was playing a pretty YOYO type game, he went from being up around £900 to being on £300 then up to £1200 then 0, some of the plays that he made seemed pretty unnecessary and overly aggressive (Like betting £225 on the river when all the draws get there in a 3 way pot OOP and then being inclined to call his opponents last £85 with a weak/non existent holding)  

The table was full of recreational players like myself who pretty much had it each time they raised, wouldn't fold to the potential nuts no matter what the other opponent was repping would call most raises pre flop and would hardly 3bet pre even with AA type premium holdings, average buy in was £300 and most players had around 2 buy ins each, with only a couple of players that were in profit  ;)

What would you say is the optimum strategy to play on a table like this.  Also how important is it to play at the stakes that you're used to? As it felt like the YOYO'y player needed to play higher to produce a win in the style that he was playing...

This is a sick good thread Lil' D. Have recently started picking up PLO again (played some HU previously). Starting to play some 6-max stuff and enjoying it. Very interesting reading all you're thought processes. In some ways I feel like im getting a grasp and generally agreeing and understand a lot of the stuff you say.... however theres a bunch of stuff i'm going to have to read at not-4:30am to sink in. The games i'm playing in the vast majority play a very fit-or-fold style... a decent amount of people over-valuing weak/potentially dominated draws and made hands. There's a few regs who seem decent too, but feel like i'm picking up a lot more here than just from my observations while grinding.

The graphs and figures/stats you've gone into are quality btw, that software looks like the nuts.

Will look to contribute soon. Pleasure reading

hi! sorry havent read any replies itt but this is how I'd play these hands in the first post..
for hand 1, you have to bet out OTF. Because in these spots you want to effectively win asap or be HU on the turn for evaluation of vile cards. its a 5way flop and some one will get 'gambly' and call your bet drawing, If you had the intention of c/r if there's multiple callers. I think you could see people get stubborn often, call, and take away an inflated pot on bad turns for your hand. it's a funky line you've took but I'm not liking it

hand 2 is sweet! if you got him on monsters EP this flop sucks for him, never playing 88XX 44XX and unlikely he has 10s, his flat seems like AAXX or JJQXds ect which calls wen it semi blocking a wrap draw on rainbow boards. I'd take the exact same line down to the dollar... take the trigger off safety OTR, fire and hope he lays down or look like a spaz vs TT

hand 3 looks like personal levelling war style to me, think they prob rivered you, called off with 99TJ8ish ect OTF picked up equity OTT and rivered you dirty style, prob sigh call it off and knew its a fold in the back of my mind.
I'm going to make it 20 OTF about 82% pot OTT i got a 82% button on stars and im loving it at the moment! if it plays the same and he calls the min raise then calls turn I end up spaz sigh call off the rivers unless the bet size seems very VB'y but you'd know best in these spots.

First question, how I would play on that type of table...

Well I think I have a good idea of what you mean, there is a game in a local casino of mine I play from time to time and it plays kinda like you've described, the first thing I do is I 3-bet a LOT, mostly because, sat deep like you say no-one every really 4bets, even with hands that are a slam-dunk 4bet like decent combo's of ACES, this just means you get to play bigger pots, in  position - important to remember if you play like that though not to get too stubborn post-flop as people are gonna play quite fit/fold for the most part.

Against players who are too fancy then just keep it simple.

How important is it to play at stakes you're used to? Well, I mean it really depends on your personality and your circumstances, I played high stakes in America last year and I lost an absolute fortune at 50/100+ but at stakes below that I won quite a bit (lot of variance in that ofc) but it certainly would be foolish of me to not think well, maybe I just play worse higher stakes because it's not a level im 100% confident with yet? Id be surprised if there wasn't some truth to that.

Basically what I always say is that anything that distracts you away from the primary objective (playing as well as possible) is going to be bad for you, if you're worried about the money, if you're not comfortable gambling this high, or even if you have plenty of money but only have 2 buyins with you and cant get more cash then that will defo distract from playing well and ultimately will cost you money.

Tom - add me on skype if you wanna share some hands ever, i'm "on it" at the moment as far as working on this sort of stuff is going :)

PM your SN, there are millions of you... even several in Leeds

same as my blonde name x

Epic thread,

Just played my first 60k hands of 50PLO, getting use to things and just developing a better understanding of player ranges atm.

I keep paying people off when they take under-repped lines with sets etc and they house up on the river and show aggression. Always throws me off

Anyway will try get involved as much as poss

Would you agree that the strategy to beat nearly every UK casino 1/2 PLO game has absolutely no similarity to the strategy  used to beat 6 max 100 PLO on stars?

I think the latter is fkn tricky as hell yet so many live games are made easier by 150+bb stacks making mistakes.

Lil Dave. Can we get a hand from a 1/2 live game to mull over? 

Cheers

Gouty,

Yes I think you are absolutely correct, the differences are as you say - 8 or 9 handed play as opposed to 6handed play, deeper stacks and (without causing any offence) a higher % of weaker play - if you took a "stnd" 1/2$ game online you'd prolly find 3 or 4 competant opponents (maybe not galfonds and iveys, but more than capable) and that is 50-66% of the table, in a live game you'll prolly find yourself with 60-80% of the table being slightly weaker than an average online opponent.

As these points create a much different dynamic to online, mostly due tp the fact that you have way more multi-way pots, and the stacks are deeper so you get all-in less, I wrote an article about it which some people have said is good :P http://www.pokerplayer.co.uk/poker-strategy/omaha/12391/full_ring_plo.html

The stacks being deeper is a crucial point, its where the weaker players make the mistakes that are costly, I see all the time online when a perceived whale pops along at high stakes and every reg onthe site jumps around to get in the game and he plays 60-80big blind stack and plays absolutely fine, the mistakes are usually getting a bit overly stubborn with draws and weak-ish made hands plus stacking off a bit to light post flop as a result of calling too many hands pre-flop.

These are mistakes, that will cost you money, but with under 100bb stacks in PLO you can make a lot worse mistakes than getting it in a bit too light :P push the stacks up to 200 big blinds and each mistake starts to compound, the call preflop which was marginal at best now puts you in a flop spot where you cost yourself Xblinds, followed by a turn spot that costs Y more and a river guessing game for 125big blinds... This is why you really do have to be extremely considerate with hand selection the deeper you get speshly in situations where you are OOP or more than 1 preflop bet has gone in.

I can't think of any casino hands I've played recently - I've not played live poker anywhere since my last LV trip, but plan to start again in Leeds this week so I'll try make something happen :P

Anyone else have a fun hand from a casino game pls feel free to post it :P

Playing £1-2 Omaha at the Vic, UTG Is German Rick

Villain loose passive stack £1300 – Has been calling light all night

UTG – Tight Aggressive, always raises 7 UTG has done for 6 rounds

Hero – Stack £1900 ( Jd Td Ks Qs)

Hero – SB

UTG – Raises to 7
UTG +1 Calls
MP – Calls
CO – Calls
BTN – Makes £35
SB – Raises £100

Folds round

BTN – Calls

Flop  9h 8c Tc

SB – 170
BTN – Calls
Turn –  Th

SB – 290
BTN – Calls

River –  Kd

What do we do…?

I don't trust loose passive live players to value bet this river with like 99xx and he won't be turning hands in to bluffs (Txxx, 67xx, J7xx) so I would let it fly if he's been calling down light. ~800.

Yes, agree with Rob, the loose passive typees you describe are unlikely to VBET thinly or bluff with anything that can go on its back (which will be most things on this board) so go for one big bet and hope he has the right type of hand to get stubborn with.

Decided to put him all in on the river with a bet of £800, thought he may pay off with 88, 99, 9T

The call was pretty instant, with his 99JT, but after the hand he told me if I checked (which I initially intended to do before I hit the K on the river) he would check behind, but he would call any bet I made on the river.  So the river bet was defo the way to go.

What I didn't understand from the Villain was after loosing this hand he told everyone on the table he was £1500 down for the day but then went on to rebuy for £200 into a deep-stacked game? He had the money as he pulled out a huge wad of 50's

$420 and always get called?

mmm I think our OPPO has a lot of FH's/trips here + the success of a £800 bet doesnt need to be much higher than a £400 bet to show more profit.


Maybe he felt he was tilting a bit and didn't wanna be too deep? Or maybe he doesn't like pulling up tooo much generally, or fancying a bit of a punt with his next £200...loads of legit reasons for this you dont have to pull up super deep jusgt cos you're losing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgFNrHyajAE

I've just been doing a session review and we all agreed that my spot is a dream spot and pretty standard stuff.

But when we considered what was the best line to take in the villains spot we were unsure. It seems like a horrible spot considering if you get it in on the flop you are most likely behind with KJ.

Is there just nothing we can do because we have the nuts and have to get it in? or is it possible to profitably check call to bluff catch?

Cheers

Wal !

Imo villain makes a mistake here peeling this hand from the BB. Will probably get flamed by Lil Dave for saying but I fold his hand pre.

With no ways to improve his hand other than backdoor hearts I will usually flat this flop.

Completely agree with all of this. And I think Lil'Dave will too.

Thanks,

Yeah I've noticed myself getting in some horror spots out of position with hands like this

your play is, agreed, completely stnd there is no merit whatsoever to you doing anything other than jamming the flop as every scare card for KJ completes your hand.

As for him, well it's only 100bb deep so you cant really fault his play, I imagine he would want to c/r some non KJ hands here (usually  Aspades Xs with gutshot semi-bluffs) so he really should have KJ in there as a hand to c/r as well, in the vacuum of this specific spot (with no useful pair of big spade blockers) I'd prefer to just check call and see a safe turn card before chk/raising, as once we've check raised we're going to be repping KJ almost exclusively in your opponents eyes that it's very possible to still get outplayed on pairs and spade turns, so if im going to hate my life on half the turn cards and have the nuts on the other half, i'd rather just be putting one bet in on the flop than 2 (unless I can get my entire stack in)

He never gets it in "great" on the flop (although it's a perfectly decent stack off) because his range will be KJ almost exclusively so he;s only going to find himself against hands with good equity, or that are freerolling KJ.

And I agree with Cos, fold pre, or if you must continue 3bet with the 100bb stacks but I think it's too weak personally.

Yeah fold pre as bb.

Unless you think he'l felt none KJ hands, click flop or flat and get it in on the turn. Easily the best play for your range and induces from the bluff part of his if it exists.

I'm no PLO pro, but since we has de toppest of sets and nuttiest of flush draws.. doesn't that make us a flip vs KJxxss???

Yeh, slight favourite. But what's your point JB?

During football matches sometimes there are several corners in a game.

Lol

Hand 2 the kkxx where you r/r flop I think you are deep enough just to float if you bink the  Kh he can easily of picked up more draws = value. Good board to float in postion I find people miss play rainbow boards like this,

The bottom set of 2's think its a coinflip between a call and a fold he will be value betting wider but not too much wider . Think its a call though

P.s im hurrendous at writing my thinking :)

£1-2 Omaha with a straddle of £4
My Stack £350
Average stack on the table is around £700, 6 handed table that's been going on all night, It's my first rotation on this table.

I’m in MP

Folds round to me, 8h 9h Td Jd

Me – Raise to 11
CO – Calls
BTN – Calls
UTG – Calls

Flop Th Jh Qd

UTG – Bets £40
Me – Flat
BTN – Raises to £150
UTG – Calls

WWYD…..?

Fold to the flop donk. As played fold to the raise.

Our hand looks SO pretty, but with 3 opponents and this board, we are more than likely up against some combinations of the current nut straight, the nut flush draw, and a set. So we could well be looking at having just the two straight flush outs. I don't know what other card i would want to see on the turn, except maybe another jack, but even if one does come, our opponents are unlikely to put any more money in with worse hands or draws.

How many opponents would we want to be up against to continue with this hand? Could we ever get it in as a favourite?


Although i haven't played much live PLO so my assumptions of peoples holdings may be too tight. Enjoying this thread by the way!

I folded but only regretted not folding to the first bet... As it turns out I was up against top set and the nfd/2pair it ended up bricking out, so I would have won. I usually would never call the raise unless I had specific reads on both players.

But wanted some feedback based on my stack size and the fact I was joining a game that had been running all night.. 

I guess as the session get's longer, and stacks get deeper, pre-flop ranges become wider, but people's willingness to get it in post flop tends towards a nutted / nut combo draw range.

They may be more willing to CALL down with marginal holdings, putting you on the draws, but less willing to be putting the raises in with hands that you dominate.

I think if you were a short stack looking to gamble you could get it in, but with any kind of normal/deep stack it's a fold. And from what i've read of your posts, short stacking doesn't seem your style!