blonde poker forum

Live cash game at DTD - £1/1  (Buy-in is capped at £250)

Hero (£380), and has had a decent run of cards as well as being happy with the make-up of the table (generally pretty weak).

Villain (£300) is sat UTG, directly to our right, and has reloaded after working his way up to over £400 through a method of calling any raise pre-flop, and calling through the streets to hit.  Very loose and generally passive, will call most bets to chase any draws.  Has shown a few bluffs and as he has shown to play ATC, these have been pretty successful.  After getting up to £400, he then proceeded to lose all but £80 of it before reloading.  Since then he's managed to hit some lovely straights to crack KK amongst others, and is now sat with about £300.


PRE-FLOP
He has straddled this hand (as he does every orbit) - £2 straddle.

I'm next to act, and have  Ac Js

I raise to £6

Called in 3 places, including the villain.

FLOP
Pot = £24

Flop:  5h Jc 8d

SB checks, Villain checks and says "Check to the raiser, who will c-bet as always".

With TPTK I oblige, and make it £20.

Folds round to the villain, who calls.  He's mentioned previously that there are two players he 'respects' at the table, with me being one of them.  So we can question his understanding of the game.

TURN
Pot = £64

Jh on the turn, so the board reads: 5h Jc 8d Jh

He checks again, and I bet £40.

He calls again, saying that he's after the 'pro' (another misread by him).

RIVER
Pot = £144

A blank on the river in the form of  the 3d.

5h Jc 8d Jh 3d

Here is the key moment of the hand for me (unless I've gone massively wrong already).  The villain sighs, mumbles to himself, again mentions trying to get chips off the 'pro', before putting £67 over the line and saying "think that's about £60".

Action's on me - and I'm thinking his 'Hollywooding' is very suspicious.  What do we put him on, and what do we do?

???

There's £120 to be won and any raise is either getting him to fold or shove. In the absence of any dynamic between the 2 of you I can't see any option other than to call.

What sort of range are you putting him on, and does his Hollywood affect your decision at all - or is it just a "there's so much in there, and I beat some of his range, lose to the rest, so it's a call"?

I want to go through and bold all the bits that made me chuckle because it's such a great OP. Suffice it to say with how he's described i'm never folding, 'probably' not raising. If it wasn't J on the turn then i'd be more worried about him having a ridic raggy 2 pair that you wouldn't assign to most other players however with worse trips in his range and a whole bunch of nonsencical peels i'ma press the middle button.

So we beat too much of his range to consider folding here?  It was the Hollywooding that made me consider this as a very possible option...

"Check to the raiser who will c-bet as always"

sounds like he's goading you into making a c-bet and I'm not going to be surprised when he shows up with a flopped set or flopped two pair. J5s and J8s seem to be well within his range given your description of him

£67 for a shot at £211 with trips (top kicker) against this kind of player....?


Slam-dunk call. Simply no way (imo) you aren't best at least one time in four. Added benefit to not raising (aside from the obvious) comes in showing down a strong hand which has a value all of its own.

His sizing's a bit weird. Doesn't look like a bluff and I can't think what he's calling for that he may have missed. This suggests that if he's bluffing he was planning it from the start. Unlikely given his little speech and I think he'd net bigger or more likely just check/jam if he's a proper hero.

His value range consists of houses and Jx combos. I think there's about a 50/50 split of hands that beat and lose to.

I'd never consider folding. If you raise I really can't see anything other than he folds or jams. I can't think of anything he just flats that we want to see and if he shoves we hate life.

Surely if he's got a weaker Jx hand than us he just check/calls again?

Without a lot more info on what's going off between you calling just seems safest.

mmmmmmmmm sigh I really wanna raise here cos he can have lliterally every JACK. problem is he can have J8 J5 55 and 88 (i think he raises the flop or turn at least SOME of the time with those) also the flop speech play sounds a LOT different to the turn/river speech play "check the the raiser who'll c-bet as always" sounds REALLY like a weakish flopped hand I think in general i would interpret that as him attempting to dissuade me from c-betting over being strong - like if he had a set I think he likely woulnd't say anything like that as mentioning the c-bet might make me think twice about doing it??

This is one of the problems with these external reads though is that everyone is different and people do wierd things, so without knowing anything about the person you can easily make mis-reads and bad assumptions.

The "chips of the pro" comments on the turn and river sounds like totally different to the flop speech, like way more confident, he's not trying to influence your actions now he's just sort of goading you/playing the big man which people usually do when they are super confident, same with the river.

Based on this I'd think J8 J5 55 and 88 were way less likely and the hand im most likely losing to is J3 but given J2/J4/J6/J7/J9/JT/QJ/KJ are all possible and quite a lot of unsuited combo's of those hands as well given the description of him pre-flop I think i'd make a raise for value here and just set him in. No way this player can fold a Jack.

Calling gotta be fine as well, but can't fold ever here based on my instincts about the flop.

There's obviously information I'm getting from him that makes me think he's very strong on the river. Maybe I haven't conveyed this correctly.

My instincts were screaming at me to fold,  but I was also thinking:

1. He's bluffing here some of the time. Probably not a high percentage of the time, but a bluff is definitely possible.

2. He is thinking or acting as though he's very strong,  but that doesn't mean he's actually beating my hand. He might think any Jack is good, and might think I'm on an over pair or something. However,he wasn't an idiot and I think he took me for having a decent hand or thought I'm on some elaborate bluff that us 'pros' do...

3. There was enough in the middle to dictate I should call.Probably a mistake long-term to fold here,
even though I think I'm actually behind on this occasion.


So, I called.

Be interesting to get Nik's (tight4better) opinion on this hand /player as he was at the table when it happened - and incidentally was the other player that the villain had highlighted as a 'pro' whose play he respected.

Really hate the Hollywood. You have to call this clown but tell him that he could have got the lot when he shows you a full house.

It is a pretty annoying when your instincts are telling you one thing, but your hand and odds dictate another.

The only problem with going with your instincts here is that there is an assumption of what we think he thinks is a good hand. Of course he could have J2 and be thinking there's no way I'm losing here. Since you've mentioned that he appears to be pretty inexperienced, plays ATC, etc etc, I think a call is the way forward. But we're not going to be surprised if he does show 55, 88, J8, J5 or J3.

Btw, what do we think about the £20 flop bet? Fine size or just a bit too much? 

Makes up for the lack of money that go's in preflop, thins the field and makes what few draws there are payyyyyyy. So fine.

Bigger pre

Slightly smaller otf but not important

Turn obv ok

River is a clear raise don't think it's close at all whole hand just stinks like j10-kj

That sums up the hand for me perfectly.

I agree with this, although I've only played live cash 3 times so idk how relevant my opinion is.

Personally, I'd value shove. If he's loose passive then I suspect he'll probably show up with a pretty big range that he perceives to be the nuts (Any Jx, 88/55/33, definitely QQ+ and maybe even as wide as 99+ and some 8x combos) which we can get value from. Ofc we're beat some of the time but we miss out on value so much of the time by not shoving, I think just get it in.

Oh I don't think he's EVER bluffing, as close to 0% bluffs as you can get, I just get the impression he wasn't in love with his hand OTF, but defo thinks he has the best hand on the turn/river (which could be any jack)

There's nothing wrong with going against the better plays if your instincts are saying one thing, they are one of the sharpest tools you have - it's a very tough thing to analyse though as those instincts are unique to you. Folding would have been kind of absurd for the reasons you say, if this guy wants to win this pot he's going to have to show you some cards better than AJ.

Yeah I've played this guy a LOT and his hollywood (as with most people) is usually "well I've got there"

Small problem is he would do this speech with KJ/QJ/J10/J9 and we know he's not folding these pre either. Like people have said you beat too much of his range to fold.

I still hate life calling because it really did feel like you were beat when I was looking at him while you were tanking, but I just couldn't envision folding AJ vs him in that spot. Worse jacks did feel like a fold though.

It was his sigh to my bet on the turn before he called, and then his subsequent talk that really made me want to fold.  Was hoping he was planning to check-raise me on the river, and I'd have just checked behind. His talk just screamed massive strength, but as we've said that didn't necessarily mean he had the nuts though, so I just couldn't make the fold. 

He did have the nuts though.

Jd 8c

Yeah I noticed, still maintain you can't fold though.

Yes, my thought process afterwards was probably too results-orientated. That time if I'd followed my instinct, I'd have been right - but there are plenty of way it could have cost me and long term it's probably right to call. 

An ace on the river would have been the nut result :D

I've made so many Hero Calls that have been wrong...  ;madasahatstand;

You should usually be 'wrong' when you hero call. As in, you should expect to lose the pot far more often than you win it. Otherwise it is not a hero call. If you only call on the river when you think you will win the pot at least 50% of the time then you are folding way too much.

I wanted to hero fold in this hand though.

The maths of the hero fold works in the opposite way. You must be 'right' a very large percentage of the time in order to make a correct hero fold. You're always getting a price ;)

Actually did this vs kinboshi during this session with a pretty ridic hand, was promptly shown "goods"

Not in the other hand you weren't though ;) (was on the turn, rather than the river that time)

Yes, that's why I called.  Of course, I only had to be right that time to be right that time :D

I kind of understand the idea behind this, and I have been right on occasions too, but without stats for live hands it's pretty hard to know the ratios and I remember far more where I was wrong and it was horribly expensive than those where I was right and won a big pot. I think I'm better than 50%, or at least I'd like to think that. I try to factor in the player's image/history and to think in terms of 'how often I need to be right compared to how often he's bluffing' which I guess is what you are referencing?

sigh

hero folding in this spot would be ridic bad, even if he tells you he has a very strong hand you beat his range and you are even being laid great odds etc etc

50p and its really not close.

I'd call or raise dependant on my instincts and reads as to what his behaviour meant.

Folding is terrible, given the info we have.

I'm genuinely bemused as to why an earlier poster thinks that the opponent, given reads, will fold or shove.
This doesn't tally with my experience of live players, as described, at all.

River is a slam dunk jam imo

If we consider he can take this line with every Jx aswell as the FH combos too.

Would be very very suprised if a 1-1 live player ever finds a fold otr with a bare J