blonde poker forum

$2.20 NLO8 turbo full ring

143 left, 81 paid

Blinds 3k/6k

80k stack opens to 12k utg+1

We're on the big blind with JJ99 one suit, playing 140k

What do you do?

Fold?

call?

trivial fold?

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lxy&chd=t:0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.0,0.72,0.72,0.72,0.72,0.72,0.72,0.72,1.44,2.16,3.6,3.6,3.6,7.91,10.07,12.23,14.39,14.39,14.39,14.39,14.39,14.39,14.39,15.11,15.11,15.83,16.55,21.58,25.9,28.06,30.22,33.81,34.53,35.25,36.69,38.13,38.13,38.13,38.85,39.57,39.57,40.29,41.01,41.01,41.73,43.88,43.88,45.32,46.04,48.2,51.08,53.24,53.96,58.27,59.71,63.31,67.63,69.78,73.38,74.1,74.82,77.7,78.42,79.86,81.29,82.01,82.73,85.61,86.33,87.77,88.49,88.49,91.37,92.81,96.4,97.84,99.28,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0|100,99.0,98.0,97.0,96.0,95.0,94.0,93.0,92.0,91.0,90.0,89.0,88.0,87.0,86.0,85.0,84.0,83.0,82.0,81.0,80.0,79.0,78.0,77.0,76.0,75.0,74.0,73.0,72.0,71.0,70.0,69.0,68.0,67.0,66.0,65.0,64.0,63.0,62.0,61.0,60.0,59.0,58.0,57.0,56.0,55.0,54.0,53.0,52.0,51.0,50.0,49.0,48.0,47.0,46.0,45.0,44.0,43.0,42.0,41.0,40.0,39.0,38.0,37.0,36.0,35.0,34.0,33.0,32.0,31.0,30.0,29.0,28.0,27.0,26.0,25.0,24.0,23.0,22.0,21.0,20.0,19.0,18.0,17.0,16.0,15.0,14.0,13.0,12.0,11.0,10.0,9.0,8.0,7.0,6.0,5.0,4.0,3.0,2.0,1.0,0.0&chs=600x400&chds=0,100&chxt=x,y,x,y,t&chxl=0:|0|10|20|30|40|50|60|70|80|90|100|1:|0|10|20|30|40|50|60|70|80|90|100|2:||Percentage+of+flops||3:||Min.%20Equity||4:||Propokertools.com|&chxs=0,000000|1,000000&chxtc=0,-400|1,-600&chf=bg,s,DDFFDD&chco=D13621)

I'm no expert but this looks about the easiest fold ever.

Doing a fold.

Just spotted you're in the BB. Still think it's a fold but I suppose seeing a flop wouldn't be hideous.

Yeah I said snap fold but someone who I usually respect as a PLO8 player said it's good to call here. I just can't see any merit to it?

i call here 1 time in 1000 and its very player dependant

i hate double paired hands with no low shouts in HI/LO even if there is no low your hand is easy dominated when you hit top set
when you hit a set your always in trouble of the low getting there and your playing for 1/2 pot

so call right?

depends on accuracy of range used for villain, but yeah if that's right then clear clear call.

15% So prob a bit loose. It'd be impossible to play oop without initiative too. Sorry posted while playing meant to include details, must have gone wrong somewhere.

We struggle to play any flop well unless we hit a set/flush, and even then we have to face a low draw. This is vs top 10%. I can't see why we would want to call here

Omaha Hi/Lo Hand vs. Range Equity Graph ?
134 flops dealt
Minimum Equity for Jc9c9sJd (vs. [10%])

(http://chart.apis.google.com/chart?cht=lxy&chd=t:0,0.75,0.75,0.75,0.75,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,1.49,2.24,2.24,4.48,4.48,5.22,5.97,5.97,6.72,7.46,7.46,8.96,10.45,11.19,11.94,11.94,11.94,13.43,14.18,14.18,14.18,14.18,15.67,17.16,17.91,17.91,18.66,21.64,22.39,23.88,26.12,28.36,29.85,29.85,29.85,31.34,32.84,33.58,33.58,35.07,36.57,36.57,37.31,38.81,40.3,42.54,44.03,45.52,47.01,48.51,50.75,52.99,53.73,54.48,56.72,58.21,59.7,61.94,62.69,64.93,66.42,69.4,70.9,72.39,72.39,74.63,81.34,82.09,84.33,88.06,90.3,91.79,92.54,94.78,94.78,94.78,96.27,97.01,97.76,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0,100.0|100,99.0,98.0,97.0,96.0,95.0,94.0,93.0,92.0,91.0,90.0,89.0,88.0,87.0,86.0,85.0,84.0,83.0,82.0,81.0,80.0,79.0,78.0,77.0,76.0,75.0,74.0,73.0,72.0,71.0,70.0,69.0,68.0,67.0,66.0,65.0,64.0,63.0,62.0,61.0,60.0,59.0,58.0,57.0,56.0,55.0,54.0,53.0,52.0,51.0,50.0,49.0,48.0,47.0,46.0,45.0,44.0,43.0,42.0,41.0,40.0,39.0,38.0,37.0,36.0,35.0,34.0,33.0,32.0,31.0,30.0,29.0,28.0,27.0,26.0,25.0,24.0,23.0,22.0,21.0,20.0,19.0,18.0,17.0,16.0,15.0,14.0,13.0,12.0,11.0,10.0,9.0,8.0,7.0,6.0,5.0,4.0,3.0,2.0,1.0,0.0&chs=450x300&chds=0,100&chxt=x,y,x,y,t&chxl=0:|0|10|20|30|40|50|60|70|80|90|100|1:|0|10|20|30|40|50|60|70|80|90|100|2:||Percentage+of+flops||3:||Min.%20Equity||4:||Propokertools.com|&chxs=0,000000|1,000000&chxtc=0,-300|1,-450&chf=bg,s,DDFFDD&chco=D13621)

There's going to be 27k in the pot with 68k behind, I don't think being OOP is a huge disadvantage. Also when we flop our equity our hand is going to be very straightforward to play I assume.

I don't think its that simple vs a nutted range with this hand, KKTT would be much simpler. SPR is pretty dam small though, just think we'll make mistakes on q67 boards vs hands like A22K. Sometimes when we flop an overpair we are really dead.

As long as we know what we're doing on the flop then calling's fine.

If we're going to take off because we have an over pair we need to fold pre.

We're looking for sets on otherwise dry boards really or maybe a decent high draw. A couple of low cards with a flush or low straight draw and top set could be in a world of pain if it goes in.

Some really strange thought processes in this hand.

The idea that we can flop a set and 'only be playing for half the pot' would apply if we had a hand like 6655 or if the stacks were very deep. When we flop a set it is impossible for there to be a low on the board. And if we flop a set with two low cards on board (e.g. J62) then we are going to be able to get such a large percentage of the effective stacks in on the flop that it does not matter that we might sometimes be getting freerolled on for the last little bit on a low turn.

Also, if we flop a set we are NOT 'easily dominated'.

Despite this, there is still a reasonable argument for folding though!

The problem with equity graphs in this spot is that they do not take visibility into account. A HUGE chunk of your postflop equity is going to be extremely difficult to play well, and you will have great difficulty realising your equity on a lot of flops (specifically when you don't hit a set). You will simply end up folding your equity share on a lot of flops.

At PLO this would not apply to anywhere near the same extent, it is the high-low aspect that creates the big problem. The bipolarity makes this so much tougher than in a high only game since there are quite a few flops which you could play aggressive in PLO but would not be comfortable doing so in PLO8. The most obvious example is a 876s flop which you would have the option of playing aggressively on at PLO using your blockers and your equity. But in PLO8 you'd just have to check-fold this sort of flop.

That said, you are getting a very good price to peel preflop of course. So you are 'allowed' to play pretty fit or fold postflop when getting such a good price preflop.

Which means, I suppose, that it probably does not matter too much either way. If it is a fold, it is a close fold. If it is a call, it is a close call.

21.35% to flop a set.

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/5121/76824706.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/194/76824706.png/)

Cant work out how to do flop equity when we have flopped a set but;

Probability Of Making A Low By The River With 2 Low-Card Flop:
2 Low Card Hand (A-2-J-Q), probability of making a low = 59%
3 Low Card Hand (A-2-6-9), probability of making a low = 72%
4 Low Card Hand (3-4-6-7) probability of making a low = 70%*

Probability of Making A Low By The River With 1 Low-Card Flop:
2 Low Card Hand (A-2-J-Q), probability of making a low = 16%
3 Low Card Hand (A-2-6-9), probability of making a low = 26%
4 Low Card Hand (3-4-6-7) probability of making a low = 24%

http://www.omahaplanet.com/omaha-hi-lo-8b/strategy/omaha-hi-lo-probability-math-how-often-will-you-make-a-low/

From there after a google search. Not 100% sure its accurate but made sense with stuff i found on 2+2.

Honeybadger if i said dominated I meant equity wise.

Nah Adam, it wasn't you that said easily dominated. And I was pretty much agreeing with you in my post tbh. Although obviously the great price preflop does make a call reasonable.

i was the one that said dominated
sets in hi lo are only good if they are top set and you can fill up IMHO
you get 2 low cards and 1 high card on the flop your likely going to end up with split pot
you get 2 high cards and 1 low card and or 3 high cards on the flop your going to be facing straights and or wraps
or bigger sets
floping a set with JJ99 is ok if your dicplined enough not to go broke

We shod always "go broke" if we flop a set with these stack sizes on NLO8. We should fold pre if we don't believe this.

I think this is marginal either way, & I try never to play NL08, PL08 is a different skillset altogther, but to a min raise, & assuming we are good enough & disciplined enough to pass if we do not hit the flop hard, I'm calling pre.

Personally, I dislike NL08 though, so I don't really understand the dynamics. 

which is why I fold pre not close for me

With these stack sizes we should not be concerned with being set-undered if the flop comes something like KJ5 or Q94. Especially not at high-low, since an opponent's range is less weighted towards big pairs than in PLO high only. If we are up against KKxx on KJ5 then so be it, it is a cooler with these effective stacks.

I am not saying that it is a clear call preflop BTW, I am just saying that the logic for folding is NOT that we might be dominated when we flop a set. You'd call with this hand in PLO, right? Yet you are far more likely to be set-undered on a KJ5 or Q94 flop at PLO than in high-low, due to the way your opponent will have constructed his preflop ranges.

I still agree it is fine to fold this hand though... I just have different reasons for it! It is also fine to call too IMO. But if you do call then make sure you don't somehow find a hero fold if you flop middle set with an SPR of ~2.5!

you could jam this hand in PLO high imo.

don't think you could, due to plo beginning with a p  ;)

i meant JLO, easy jam in JLO i reckon.

sounds like an amazingn game to me

In plo I would pot this hand, but in hilo I don't play due to the equity lose not having any low possibilitys

You would be 3-betting this holding from the BB at PLO?

yhhhhh, not 100% with this stack size but defo the most underplayed hands double pairs imo.