Title: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 17, 2013, 05:07:02 AM Villain hasn't been at table long but is clearly decent. He sat with the max and would have sat with more if allowed. Starts hand with c£200
He opens to £5 which is called in one spot and I raise Jd 9d £14 from late position playing c £450 Flop 6h 9c Js checked to me, I bet £22 Both call Turn Qs checked to me, I bet £40, villain calls, other guy folds. River Ks He leads for £105 with not much back..... Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 17, 2013, 09:44:21 AM hand at the Vic, villain is unknown but says he's up from Southampton with mates on a road trip.
Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 17, 2013, 10:36:15 AM Like £24 pre. You want to be in a spot where you can at least win the pot pre, and it may not be worth while 3bing here in order to keep any fish in. If its one of the two people i think (Howden/Cristo) snap fold vs Howden and lol at Cristo, ask him how big his current ds is and call, hes raging atm and def would fire with something ridiculous here. Its not even a size he could vb for, he reads hands too well/gives his opponents too little respect to fire 105 for value although i can imagine you would garner a degree of respect from him if you've spoke. So many live tells too :) Maybe not 24 but I agree, think the 3 bet (especially the size) is a little fps'y at this game, lets take a flop. and LOL at the rest of your post :D 24>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14 though If we cant win the pot pre we effectively pay £9 to take a bloated pot ip with initiative, which doesnt sound bad but we are getting 4b bluffed vs (Cristo) and can see a flop ip. At least make him consider folding. Abso fine if we are isoing a weaker opponent when luke(Keylek)/howden/cristo are in the blinds but not this spot imo. 3b/call both fine pre could even argue a fold if he is particularly early. So nice 200bb deep ip tho. edit: sigh and fold, dont beat anything really, would be really surprised to see a bluff You posted simultaneously with my post saying hand was at the Vic. Villain unknown but think early 20s, fancies his chances, generally active pre. He was button to my straddle and raised 100% of my straddles that reached him un raised. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: Keylek on February 17, 2013, 05:17:34 PM Like £24 pre. You want to be in a spot where you can at least win the pot pre, and it may not be worth while 3bing here in order to keep any fish in. If its one of the two people i think (Howden/Cristo) snap fold vs Howden and lol at Cristo, ask him how big his current ds is and call, hes raging atm and def would fire with something ridiculous here. Its not even a size he could vb for, he reads hands too well/gives his opponents too little respect to fire 105 for value although i can imagine you would garner a degree of respect from him if you've spoke. So many live tells too :) Maybe not 24 but I agree, think the 3 bet (especially the size) is a little fps'y at this game, lets take a flop. and LOL at the rest of your post :D 24>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>14 though If we cant win the pot pre we effectively pay £9 to take a bloated pot ip with initiative, which doesnt sound bad but we are getting 4b bluffed vs (Cristo) and can see a flop ip. At least make him consider folding. Abso fine if we are isoing a weaker opponent when luke(Keylek)/howden/cristo are in the blinds but not this spot imo. 3b/call both fine pre could even argue a fold if he is particularly early. So nice 200bb deep ip tho. edit: sigh and fold, dont beat anything really, would be really surprised to see a bluff You posted simultaneously with my post saying hand was at the Vic. Villain unknown but think early 20s, fancies his chances, generally active pre. He was button to my straddle and raised 100% of my straddles that reached him un raised. Oh you're right, sorry dave. Therefore I would fold unless I'm just absolutely sure he is bluffing.... What is he turning into a bluff though? And preflop opinion still stands. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: rfgqqabc on February 17, 2013, 06:14:59 PM I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68
OTT as played like £58? Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 17, 2013, 06:51:29 PM I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68 OTT as played like £58? £14 pre seemed to be effective on the table, but I take the point. £24 probably wins pre vs most of his range. Why £26 on flop and then £68 on turn though? Are we betting for value or bluffing? I was pretty certain it was for value right up to the river... On the river I couldn't imagine a hand that raise called pre, ck called flop and turn that then became a bluff unless it was a bluff from the start, which felt unlikely oop anfpd not against John Black... Although.... I knew he reminded me of someone... Still folding? - I did btw, fold that is. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: rfgqqabc on February 17, 2013, 07:17:59 PM I think I size flop and turn a lot bigger, like £26/68 OTT as played like £58? £14 pre seemed to be effective on the table, but I take the point. £24 probably wins pre vs most of his range. Why £26 on flop and then £68 on turn though? Are we betting for value or bluffing? I was pretty certain it was for value right up to the river... On the river I couldn't imagine a hand that raise called pre, ck called flop and turn that then became a bluff unless it was a bluff from the start, which felt unlikely oop anfpd not against John Black... Although.... I knew he reminded me of someone... Still folding? - I did btw, fold that is. £4 more on the flop makes it 120 in the pot on the turn, with ~160 back (effective) meaning its easier to get in with a ~65/95 turn/river size on favourable run outs. Not a problem here though. £40 gives him the price with JT/QT if he can get a touch of value if he gets there. I'd be interested on peoples thoughts on betting flop to a size like 34 because the callers may have inelastic calling ranges, (Jx might not fold for 40, opponent dependent but no need to bet closer to half pot for balance purposes (which may be a factor in the G on occasion) Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: SuuPRlim on February 18, 2013, 02:40:49 AM I agree i'd 3bet bigger. would fold now, i've paid many of these bets off in live poker games during my life and really wish i'd folded them all.
Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: jgcblack on February 19, 2013, 12:58:45 AM having played in these specific games a lot.
Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. Would treat this hand as a two street hand and bet 2/3 flop and 3/4-5/6 pot Ott, then check back river. with his line and this runout I expect to be beat >98% time in these games. He will show you the bluff, so when you fold and dont see anything, he just had As 9s, 10J, etc... :D Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: pleno1 on February 19, 2013, 08:58:33 AM having played in these specific games a lot. Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. please expand. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 19, 2013, 10:12:02 AM having played in these specific games a lot. Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. please expand. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: Doobs on February 19, 2013, 10:29:19 AM having played in these specific games a lot. Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. please expand. Pls don't, it is likely to hurt. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: sedds on February 19, 2013, 05:15:47 PM I prefer flatting for a few reasons; when you 3bet you're going to get flatted alot by the first guy which means the second guy will come along. The type of hands they call with all will have good equity vs you which isn't great now that the stack to pot ratio is bloated. When you flat you have a much better chance of getting them off hands postflop with money behind - forcing them to make a larger equity errors. Squeezing postflop with some equity is always going to get more respect than pre. Plus J9 is lovely and you can hit a ton of flops and not get 4bet :)
Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: david3103 on February 19, 2013, 05:25:14 PM But flatting means we only get a good chance of winning the pot when we hit it...
Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: sedds on February 19, 2013, 06:16:07 PM Not really, you get checked to sometimes, you can bluff raise stuff that isn't good enough to call - weaker pairs/gutshots/air and you can hit draws/nice hands. When you flat you get alot more information on the flop about your opponents likely hand strengths. You are more able to gauge bet sizings/timings + board texture and decide whether your image is good enough to represent something stronger or whether you have implied odds or to take a free card etc. If you 3bet, you lose relative position - the hand will likely get checked to whether they have hit or not and you will have a more difficult time folding out pairs etc.
I'm not saying 3betting isn't profitable though, alot of the time people will flat and just fold flops. Having the initiative is a bit easier but its also overrated, particularly with more money behind. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: jgcblack on February 19, 2013, 06:25:33 PM having played in these specific games a lot. Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. please expand. Pls don't, it is likely to hurt. Feeling the love guys.. I mean by this, I'm not 3bt-ing any sooted cards that don't have either the K or the A of the suit in them... purely because we don't get enough folds in these games in my experience. They will be peeling with almost all suited hands and therefore I want to stack off with all flush draws in most situations. We will mostly have an overcard or tp + draw... making us a flip at worst vs the majority of most peoples ranges and often crushing when they have a sd + fd combo. horrible thinking? Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: jgcblack on February 19, 2013, 06:27:06 PM But flatting means we only get a good chance of winning the pot when we hit it... mostly yes... because these games are really really weak.. the way we beat these games isn't by making people fold, its by value betting and bluff catching when they blowup! (wish I could hear myself sometimes) Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: Keylek on February 20, 2013, 05:30:36 PM But flatting means we only get a good chance of winning the pot when we hit it... mostly yes... because these games are really really weak.. the way we beat these games isn't by making people fold, its by value betting and bluff catching when they blowup! (wish I could hear myself sometimes) Yeah I mean I'm not going to go into too much detail as theres not very much point but imho 3 betting J9s to an amount where you are basically always going to receive 2 callers is not a good play, esp when at least one you think is clearly good and rolled for the game. Hand is a nice but not great hand, the position is sweet.. A5o or something I would understand. This is from years of playing and doing not just talking nonsense. One of the main points is the person you're 3 betting, it could be fine isoing a fish with this hand but not a good player. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: Keylek on February 20, 2013, 05:34:35 PM Not really, you get checked to sometimes, you can bluff raise stuff that isn't good enough to call - weaker pairs/gutshots/air and you can hit draws/nice hands. When you flat you get alot more information on the flop about your opponents likely hand strengths. You are more able to gauge bet sizings/timings + board texture and decide whether your image is good enough to represent something stronger or whether you have implied odds or to take a free card etc. If you 3bet, you lose relative position - the hand will likely get checked to whether they have hit or not and you will have a more difficult time folding out pairs etc. I'm not saying 3betting isn't profitable though, alot of the time people will flat and just fold flops. Having the initiative is a bit easier but its also overrated, particularly with more money behind. All of this, even what black said and more - esp in this particular stake game. Title: Re: Two pair in 3 bet pot, live £1/£1 Post by: Keylek on February 20, 2013, 05:36:20 PM having played in these specific games a lot. Never 3bting anything without a sooted A or K pre, always bigger than £14. please expand. Pls don't, it is likely to hurt. Feeling the love guys.. I mean by this, I'm not 3bt-ing any sooted cards that don't have either the K or the A of the suit in them... purely because we don't get enough folds in these games in my experience. They will be peeling with almost all suited hands and therefore I want to stack off with all flush draws in most situations. We will mostly have an overcard or tp + draw... making us a flip at worst vs the majority of most peoples ranges and often crushing when they have a sd + fd combo. horrible thinking? Over-thinking I think, but certainly not horrible. |