blonde poker forum

my image is JOKE JOKE JOKE absurd bad. I 4bet folded previously likle 5 hands ago, and 3bet vs villain here, im llaying like 82/60 over 2 orbit sample.


Seat 5: ottoman09 (61,420)
Seat 6: pads1161 (62,740)
TheTurk80 antes 150
Kraukliz antes 150
PerfectWeather antes 150
RushAAKKandQQ antes 150
ottoman09 antes 150
pads1161 antes 150
Rob_10108 antes 150
StevoL_7 antes 150
Boston3Party antes 150
RushAAKKandQQ posts the small blind of 600
ottoman09 posts the big blind of 1,200
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pads1161 [Js Ts]
pads1161 raises to 2,400
Rob_10108 folds
StevoL_7 folds
Boston3Party folds
TheTurk80 folds
Kraukliz folds
PerfectWeather folds
RushAAKKandQQ folds
ottoman09 calls 1,200
*** FLOP *** [Qc 4c 4s] (Total Pot: 6,750, 2 Players)
ottoman09 checks
pads1161 bets 2,888
ottoman09 calls 2,888
*** TURN *** [Qc 4c 4s] [8d] (Total Pot: 12,526, 2 Players)
ottoman09 bets 8,890
pads1161 ?

villain is a ftops jersey guy,

thoughts?

Never a bluff, he's trying to make u spaz IMO if u have maniac image. Prob  Kd Qs +

What on earth?

I sometimes raise here, and then hit myself afterwards. Can call if you really fancy it, agree prob a real good chunk kq+

nines always hit the river

He could sometimes be making this play with a flopped flush draw, seems stronger than check/raising flop. I think all his queens maybe check call turn to allow you to keep firing? Like you said your image is joke bad so why would he make you fold all your bluffs. He could do this with all his pocket pairs except QQ,44 and 88. He doesn't have many 4's in his range. If we are going to make a play we have to flat his donk bet and make a play on the river as this gives us a much stronger range on the river IMO

i didnt fold.

You flat and bet the river when he checked?

Dang kids with their stupid lines..  :tikay:

This looks like a good spot to hit the fold button to me.

I hope you didn't raise, think its really bad here. Calling seems okish

Would you fold any of these hands on the turn? AQ,KQ,JQ,KK,AA

If not then we should play our entire range vs Villian because his range isn't super strong with the line he has taken

I mean ignoring the fact weaker players can bink a jersey this guy is basically saying I dare you. So the hands you mention have different ways to play compared to this.

So are you saying you wouldn't bet the flop with those hands? Because that's the only thing we can do differently so far

I doubt I'd fold those hands no. They look like they might have a chance of winning though so I class them slightly differently.

Every now and then I just think it's ok to lose a pot and in this spot with J high I think I could get over it.

Don't get me wrong I'm not at all suggesting that folding is bad in this spot. Just good to explore other ways of playing our perceived range. We need try to ignore we have Jack High

Due to our image, I dare say i don't think he's ever folding a hand he takes this line with. I'd go as far as to say the only way were winning this hand is for a 9 to hit the river.

we don't have to win every pot, its ok to let one go :)

fwiw I really like his line as a bluff/semi bluff (without SD value), so I can see why you didn't fold

what, i think the complete opposite. I think he never has a hand here. Always complete floats/random garbage, very surprised by the opinions itt.

I did sugget this, did I not?

Someone we think is at least reasonable has peeled from the bb, c/c flop and donked the turn. Ridiculous bluff line from someone competent. However, if he knows your not going to hit the fold button, then he just donk/calls or donk/shove or w/e the turn and lols. The only way we should continue is if we think he is an idiot, because if he isn't there is no reason to donk here if he is ever going to fold.

Don't think it's massively ridiculous as long as Villian also barrels river. Villian knows that we cbet flop 100% of the time with our entire range. So he can call wide here to try and take us off our hand. Which he attempts to do on turn and as long as he barrels river this will get through a lot of times. Let's say he has a low to middle suited connector of clubs. He can make us fold AK JJ etc etc when he could possibly only have 9 high.

Therefore I dont think Villians line is "ridiculous" as long as he follows through on the river

why is it a ridic bluff line? its a ridic value line imo. qx almsot certainly bluff catches.

i min raise pre, and bet super small on q44.

Totally agree with it being a ridic value line

his thinking is prolly just that this is a better way to bluff than c/r the flop, and cheaper than c/r the turn.

Think as a vacuum playing i like making it 20,500, sets up for (a perceived at least) very comfortable river shove, not saying you SHOULD shove the river but it'll certainly look like you're intending on shoving. Plus you prolly have a lot of fold equity vs his whole range (most of which will be vs bluffs that we're a little bit behind to with J high ) and i think the fact your image is wacky enough to be raising a Q here for value. I also think a LOT of the hands that just CALL here will be 56/67/75 clubs and ofc NFD's and we might actually have enough equity vs that range OTR to not need to bluff as he;s never bet/calling a Q on the turn and chk/folding it OTR though with the image you have. Although this is pretty optimistic thinking

I think calling and raising/betting when checked to on the river will have a lot of theoretical merit but can't see it working all that often here. Vacuum play I like raising or folding, prefer folding though and attacking when we have an A (or K) in our hand with just the tiny amount more showdown value (like if you had AJ) this spot would be much much easier for us. Can't hate on taking off here though with the (urgh) "nutshot" and a range that could include QQ/A4/45/46/34/Q4/K4/AA/KK and against a range which is unlikely to have most of those hands

think raising turn is v good and jamming river after raising turn is horrific.

however from theory/balance pov, very hard to be balanced as i'm calling almost all value hands ott.

Think that's why I would prefer flatting turn then betting river when checked too or going all in vs a river bet as we have more of a value range. This is obviously presuming villian allow us to do this, if hes smart enough he will just shove river or bet enough to fake no fold equitity. Whereas raising turn is much more polarised as why would we re-raise our value hands vs a perceived weak range? All depends on what level Villian is on lol

Thats why he is doing it. It looks stupid and he wants you to spew.

mtt players can level post flop















[ ]

If he has any idea about hand reading though raising the turn just looks so FOS its unreal, as you said you raise no value hands ott. A hand like KQ is such an easy b/c on the turn when u raise imo.

v v v rarely has a hand liek kq ott.

I occasionally take a line like this vs people I view as maniacs

even if he has a flush draw (biggest part of his range imo) hes sticking it in your eye to a raise, well I know I am anyway

I think donk/calling the NFD would be pretty bad unless speficially Ac Kc or Ac 8c as its so fucking easy to play against Pleno gets the slightest inkling your capable of it QJ now the easiest turn raise/call ever. However in a vacuum vs pleno's image i might have some merit, although most lunatics (even bad lunatics) have the common sense to realise that everyone else knows how mental they are and to "go with" more hands + there natural movement towards lunacy will make them want to raise/go with more hands anyway.

If the oppo in this hand has decided to donk QT to call a raise and chk/call the river but to donk/chk fold the river then I actually think that line is quite sharky but i seriously doubt he's actually doing that here.

it's raise/chk river for me although I think folding THIS hand specifically is prolly best although I would NEVER fold AJ here I dont think.

How much different is JT and AJ here? In the opinion of the esteemed posters before me.

AJ is worse surely 3 outs to a queen compared to 4 with the 9. Plus JT  is a lot prettier and has same outs vs 99 and the rest.

It's not just outs though is it. AJ might actually be winning and not need outs.

If JT doesn't hit you have no choice but to bluff or give up. AJ might have some showdown value if we pussy out and don't want to continue this kamikaze line.

It's not about his outs to possibly make the best hand, we are planning to take this pot away from Villian either on river or turn (I prefer river personally) what AJ allows us to do over J10 is that we have more showdown vs Villian donking out K high but showdown surely isn't where we won't to go? (I would like to hear daves opinion on why You would prefer ace high to jack high if we are avoiding showdown)

In regards to people wanting to fold to the donk turn bet all you are doing is taking a lower variance line, which is fine if that's your playing style or you feel Villian has a stronger range than he seems to be representing. But if you prefer lower variance then you may just fold J10 pre flop to avoid this scenario. I don't think there's any need to be overly critical of people that wish to take this line, this is why Poker is an enjoyable game, pitting your wits against various styles.

However what you must realise is we are playing our range not our hand. The flop is dryer than Ghandi's flip flop so Villian is competent enough to realise that we cbet 100% on this board. He also knows we will most likely cbet all turns also so he should check his value range on turn. The fact that he donks makes it easier for us to convince him that we have a strong range rather than us 3 barrelling which could make us too polorised sometimes.

I would be interested to know if the people that would fold the turn would cbet again if Villian checked??

If my image was joke joke joke insane bad I would deffo question the merit of taking the high variance option and as such would fold pre. I understand the way you break it down but think you are looking at the hand in a vaccuum. We have ok chips here and I would want to assess factors like other stacks at the table, how the table is playing, our current position in the comp etc before understanding the need to risk jamming J high from an insane bad image.

Overall it's almost certain villain has better equity in the hand than we do and we don't rightly know what his bet means and we have J high. I also wonder what is the merit of our cbet if villain knows we cbet 100%? It's not a good vbet or a good bluff.

We cbet the flop as it makes it easier to build our range through the streets. If we check flop it's going to be difficult to have our value hands in our range eg AA KK AQ KQ JQ Q10 JJ 1010 etc etc

good luck villain being able to successfully counter us cbetting with a super high frequency when calling oop without initiative on q44r, he tried possibly the best line, but unfortunately for him, he ran into a stubborn man who has 2 buttons, neither of them beginning in f.

 Ahrt

I get that we're playing our range, not our hand, but we have to remember that what our cards are really is one of the most relevant things in any hand.

The reason I want AJ, not JT here is because if we raise the turn and he calls I think his range is specifically made up of strong-strongish turn draws and fucnky value lines, I think he wont have taken this flop/turn line for value to fold on most rivers (maybe some, hard to know which) so we're now facing a range of draws which have missed (I think we have to give up on clubs almost always) and funky value lines which have tried to induce us. In my last post I was thinking does JT NEED to bluff vs that range? I think it prolly DOES, whereas I'm pretty confident AJ has plenty equity against the non-value stuff in his turn range to showdown, if we work with the assumption anything he's taken this line for value with till this point wont be folding.

Also an ACE is forsure a slam dunk VB on the end whereas a J or a T might not be.

The maths of these types of moves gets so much easier on you with just a little bit of equity , for example raising JT here and then losing on a brick to Kc Jc is really fkn bad. This is why saying its about our range not our hand is abso correct, but our hand is really really relevant.

That's why I believe flatting turn and betting river is better than re-raising turn just incase he does have a hand like Kc Jc or any Ace high flush draw. I appreciate these are small margins but it sometimes can come to this. If your saying that an ace river is a slam dunk value bet (which obviously is) then so are the four 9's left in the deck if we have j 10. So as long as we are taking the line of not folding turn I still prefer J 10.

PS - appreciate your response Dave

NPs, interesting discussion really.

I get why flatting the turn is better in theory as we dont really have a vaue range that raises the turn, problem is, in a vacuum how often he our oppo going to give up OTR, and shipping over his river bet has to be for ALL-IN so we've defo picked the most expensive bluff line, with zero equity, therefore we have to be very sure that we are getting the folds we need as there is no reprise from the maths. I don't have a problem with big 0equity bluffs, and tbh people prolly dont do them enough but you gotta be very confident it's the right play cos the line between this and pure spew is pretty thin.

Calling with JT and folding to a river bet (and blufing when checked to) is a very exploitative play, and we'll be doing this because we think our opponent doesn't bluff the river with a high enough frequency (but there's no way to know if this is the case or not) just like calling and jamming over a river bet will be exploiting the fact he bluffs with too high a frequency (which again we don't know)

Basically i feel like there is too much guesswork in this spot to take an exploitative float line, but I think there IS quite a bit of vacuum merit in just raising here, purely because he doesn't rep much, we don't rep much either but we're not repping much for a bigger bet and leveraging him to play for his stack giving him the much more expensive option to defend against us.

We're never getting him off a Queen, if he has one. So really we're just trying to attack the fact he has a pretty thin value range considering most of his flop c/c range are bluff-catchers. And the cheapest way to do it is undoubtedly to raise here imo.