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Title: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 11:53:20 AM No idea how but remaining field is ridiculously tough. 28 Left, we are currently 9/28.
Seat 1: apestyles (222642 in chips) Seat 2: gnat777 (169932 in chips) Seat 4: OallLEG (133745 in chips) Seat 5: Artem205 (244559 in chips) Seat 6: GaggleoKings (167967 in chips) Seat 7: TERM(Ivan) (121482 in chips) Seat 9: lubos1980cz (81834 in chips) apestyles: posts the ante 500 gnat777: posts the ante 500 OallLEG: posts the ante 500 Artem205: posts the ante 500 GaggleoKings: posts the ante 500 TERM(Ivan): posts the ante 500 lubos1980cz: posts the ante 500 gnat777: posts small blind 2000 OallLEG: posts big blind 4000 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to GaggleoKings [Th Ac] Artem205: folds GaggleoKings: raises 4000 to 8000 TERM(Ivan): folds lubos1980cz: folds apestyles: raises 8000 to 16000 gnat777: folds OallLEG: folds GaggleoKings: ??? Guy in BB has hardly played a hand is running 5/5/0/0 over 90 hands or so. We are fairly new to the table and have been fairly active, although not to the point where we'd be classed as a maniac. We have only ~200 hands on villain previous to this. Running something like 16/16/4/12.3. As said previously we're fairly new to the table ~ 2.5 orbits. Twice we have 3b/5b jammed over a button open from the SB which has been seen by villain - we haven't shown down either time. Expecting majority to say fold, however pretty sure i was getting 3b close to 100% when opening this guys BB. If we 4b, do we call or fold? Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: MC on March 21, 2013, 12:02:35 PM Probs just fold
I guess you could 4-bet fold sometimes, but stacks don't look great for it Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 12:07:05 PM Probs just fold I guess you could 4/bet fold sometimes Maybe not thread worthy but is there any merit in 4b/c ? Expecting him to stick it in my eye close to 100%. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: MC on March 21, 2013, 12:18:15 PM Probs just fold I guess you could 4/bet fold sometimes Maybe not thread worthy but is there any merit in 4b/c ? Expecting him to stick it in my eye close to 100%. If that's your thinking then def rule out 4b/fold :) 4b/call has merit, seems kinda thin though. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Doobs on March 21, 2013, 12:23:28 PM Don't think apestyles is that aggro. Just fold for me.
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: pleno1 on March 21, 2013, 12:32:39 PM if we think people are that aggro i.e "100%" "100%" and its a tough field, then I'm just 4b/calling.
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Pinchop73 on March 21, 2013, 01:03:19 PM ]00 Imo it is a mistake to assume that a Reg has seen a particular action, which is then magnified with assuming a regs range is wider due to it. He could be 10 tabling at the time and may not have noticed a thing.As said previously we're fairly new to the table ~ 2.5 orbits. Twice we have 3b/5b jammed over a button open from the SB which has been seen by villain - we haven't shown down either time. This deep (both in terms of stack and tournie) I don't like a 4ball vs villain (no matter how aggro a rep). He's never 5b/jamming worse, and folding having put 1/4 of my stack in is very horrible. The very best we can hope for with a 4b is adding 4bb to our stack when he folds. Not a large enough positive to outweigh the negatives in my opinion. Also, he's 3b'ing a 40bb stack, I don't feel he does this light, this deep into a tournie very often. When he does there needs to have been a direct dynamic between yourselves, I don't see this. Just my opinion. Ta Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 02:09:28 PM ]00 Imo it is a mistake to assume that a Reg has seen a particular action, which is then magnified with assuming a regs range is wider due to it. He could be 10 tabling at the time and may not have noticed a thing.As said previously we're fairly new to the table ~ 2.5 orbits. Twice we have 3b/5b jammed over a button open from the SB which has been seen by villain - we haven't shown down either time. This deep (both in terms of stack and tournie) I don't like a 4ball vs villain (no matter how aggro a rep). He's never 5b/jamming worse, and folding having put 1/4 of my stack in is very horrible. The very best we can hope for with a 4b is adding 4bb to our stack when he folds. Not a large enough positive to outweigh the negatives in my opinion. Also, he's 3b'ing a 40bb stack, I don't feel he does this light, this deep into a tournie very often. When he does there needs to have been a direct dynamic between yourselves, I don't see this. Just my opinion. Ta I really disagree with him never 5b jamming worse, think hes 5b jamming near 100% of hands hes 3betting. Like your point on not assuming regs have seen things though, didn't think about that. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: SuuPRlim on March 21, 2013, 02:12:35 PM Middy will know what to do here!
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 02:16:25 PM Dealt to GaggleoKings [Th Ac]
Artem205: folds GaggleoKings: raises 4000 to 8000 TERM(Ivan): folds lubos1980cz: folds apestyles: raises 8000 to 16000 gnat777: folds OallLEG: folds GaggleoKings: raises 29555 to 45555 apestyles: raises 176587 to 222142 and is all-in GaggleoKings: calls 121912 and is all-in Uncalled bet (54675) returned to apestyles *** SHOW DOWN *** GaggleoKings: shows [Th Ac] apestyles: shows [X X] The 4bet is huge. It was meant to be huge though (i was one tabling at the time and had plenty of time to think it through). It caps our range (i.e. never 1010+) and he's going to expect me to fold pretty much everything else (other then AK / AQ maybe) therefore i feel hes gonna jam 100% of the hands he 3bets here (Other then AA / KK..etc as he doesn't think we're ever calling). Also by making it this size - we effectively leave ourself a pot sized bet behind and therefore ensure he NEVER flats and puts us in worlds of hurt. Would like to hear peoples opinions on sizing / calling? Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: rfgqqabc on March 21, 2013, 03:19:42 PM Some guy did this to me once and I had AT and he had A9. Different tourney and calibre of player but 4b/c must have merits vs someone who can 5b bluff. Shouldn't he clock on to your 4b size?
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 03:30:39 PM Some guy did this to me once and I had AT and he had A9. Different tourney and calibre of player but 4b/c must have merits vs someone who can 5b bluff. Shouldn't he clock on to your 4b size? We want him to clock on. We 4b so big to intentionally turn our hand ~face up to one he doesn't think will call (Therefore allowing him to jam 100% hands hes 3b with other then top of his range - AA/KK...etc) - where as we are really going to call. Or am misunderstanding you here mate haha. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Doobs on March 21, 2013, 03:35:13 PM How can your raise size cap your range meaning it can never be TT+? I assume he has barely played you, so has no idea what your raise size means. If he had played you a lot that should be your raise size for your entire range surely? I wouldn't want to be varying raise sizes too much vs anyone competent.
I was wrong earlier, must have got him confused with someone else, he is at the aggro end. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 03:42:58 PM How can your raise size cap your range meaning it can never be TT+? I assume he has barely played you, so has no idea what your raise size means. If he had played you a lot that should be your raise size for your entire range surely? I wouldn't want to be varying raise sizes too much vs anyone competent. I was wrong earlier, must have got him confused with someone else, he is at the aggro end. Have like ~200 Hands on him so assume he has a similar number on me - (obviously this isn't a very big sample tho). Was discussing with a few friends and my standard 4b size would be significantly smaller then this (he may not know this, but if he'd been watching the previous hands I'd played on this table, this sizing would stand out - although as pinchop says i understand hes a reg who may have lots of tables and therefore may not be paying as close attention as i had whilst one tabling). Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Rupert on March 21, 2013, 03:43:44 PM Quote The 4bet is huge. It was meant to be huge though (i was one tabling at the time and had plenty of time to think it through). It caps our range (i.e. never 1010+) and he's going to expect me to fold pretty much everything else (other then AK / AQ maybe) therefore i feel hes gonna jam 100% of the hands he 3bets here (Other then AA / KK..etc as he doesn't think we're ever calling). Also by making it this size - we effectively leave ourself a pot sized bet behind and therefore ensure he NEVER flats and puts us in worlds of hurt. Would like to hear peoples opinions on sizing / calling? This is pretty ambitious. Even if he thinks your range is capped due to your sizing, which seems like a pretty tenuous thought process, your range is still strong such that he's not going to want to rip KJo in every time. People who are expecting him to 5b jam 100% of the time are just straight up incorrect. ApeStyles is a good player and I think it's fair to assume he is more balanced than doing 100% of something with his entire range at some point unless he has you pegged as some mega-exploitable moron which is unlikely. It's far more likely that he will just 3b/5b a wider value range (hands like 66-88, AJ, KQ) than just 3b/decide to 5b jam with something like A3s. Sure those situations do come up, but there's no reason for you to think this is one of them. I think a far better overall strategy vs ApeStyles is keeping your 4b size the same for your entire range. I would probably just call the 3 bet with ATo. I think it's pretty ambitious to 4b/c it under nearly all circumstances, but especially vs him who is pretty solid. 4b folding seems fine too. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Dubai on March 21, 2013, 03:47:20 PM Rupert the only one talking sense. Saved me typing
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 03:54:22 PM This is pretty ambitious. Even if he thinks your range is capped due to your sizing, which seems like a pretty tenuous thought process, your range is still strong such that he's not going to want to rip KJo in every time. People who are expecting him to 5b jam 100% of the time are just straight up incorrect. ApeStyles is a good player and I think it's fair to assume he is more balanced than doing 100% of something with his entire range at some point unless he has you pegged as some mega-exploitable moron which is unlikely. It's far more likely that he will just 3b/5b a wider value range (hands like 66-88, AJ, KQ) than just 3b/decide to 5b jam with something like A3s. Sure those situations do come up, but there's no reason for you to think this is one of them. I think a far better overall strategy vs ApeStyles is keeping your 4b size the same for your entire range. I would probably just call the 3 bet with ATo. I think it's pretty ambitious to 4b/c it under nearly all circumstances, but especially vs him who is pretty solid. 4b folding seems fine too. Think this is /thread to be honest. Yeah in hindsight i also though my 4b/c was really ambitious, hence the thread and asking peoples opinions. I really didn't like it after some thought. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Doobs on March 21, 2013, 04:29:28 PM Rupert the only one talking sense. Saved me typing Thanks mate Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: SuuPRlim on March 21, 2013, 05:23:15 PM Middy will know what to do here! Rupert the only one talking sense. Saved me typing oi Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: youthnkzR on March 21, 2013, 05:44:26 PM Dealt to GaggleoKings [Th Ac]
Artem205: folds GaggleoKings: raises 4000 to 8000 TERM(Ivan): folds lubos1980cz: folds apestyles: raises 8000 to 16000 gnat777: folds OallLEG: folds GaggleoKings: raises 29555 to 45555 apestyles: raises 176587 to 222142 and is all-in GaggleoKings: calls 121912 and is all-in Uncalled bet (54675) returned to apestyles *** SHOW DOWN *** GaggleoKings: shows [Th Ac] apestyles: shows [4d 4c] For any of you interested Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: dreenie on March 21, 2013, 06:12:56 PM Who won?
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: pleno1 on March 21, 2013, 07:59:07 PM Hm disagree that good players don't do x with 100% of their range.
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Rupert on March 22, 2013, 12:36:07 AM Eh yeah I guess that's wrong, but in this instance, and most preflop instances, it's a correct statement I think
Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: stato_1 on March 22, 2013, 05:54:59 AM lols
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB47NRDcdBc Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: Doobs on March 22, 2013, 10:41:37 AM lols YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB47NRDcdBc Topical in so many ways. Title: Re: Deep in Big $109 vs Apestyles Post by: dwayne110 on March 22, 2013, 11:01:31 AM I don't understand why we'd want to induce a shove with a view to calling off in this spot, against an opponent who has us covered and given we still have 40 bb's.... just seems massively high variance, given it's only rag Aces we're far ahead of?
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