blonde poker forum

Background:

SPT Stratford, the table is mostly locals with a few Sky Players.  With the exception of 2 or 3 players, the table standard is pretty soft.  Player on my left is a kid who seems to have never played live before so I've been trying to help him out.  About 15 minutes ago he's just caused a bit of uproar by, when asked by the local on his left (Villain 1) if he'd show if he folded to which he agreed, then he went on to hand his cards in face down.  The general atmosphere is a little prickly.  Locals don't like the kids, kids don't care.

Villain 1 - Two to my left, local, very very very vocal.  Has twice taken an aggressive strong line and then folded to returned strength (including the hand I mentioned above).  Turning up with decent aces, all broadways at showdown.  Bit of a cockney and cocky geezer.  Been very chatty with the two on my right.  Has so far open limped and opened to 5x.

Villain 2 - Barmy.  Three to my right, he's wearing the full gear of hoodie, sunglasses and Beats headphones.  Constantly shaking while in a pot.  Has been seen to double float with J5 no pair no draw and been snapped on river, has chased all draws all the way, taken really weird lines and been coming in to 85% of pots, nearly always by calling.  Has bounced between 40k and 15k a couple of times already.

30k Starting stack, we're down to 23k.  We haven't shown anything funky to date, made a couple of folds in half decent pots.  Haven't been that active really but not many at the table would have paid attention to this.

Hero in SB with  Aspades  Qs
Blinds 100/200

Villain 1 (playing about 35k) UTG opens to 600
Three callers by the time it gets to me.
We flat, BB comes along.

Flop

 3d 7s 9s

We check, as does BB.
Villain 1 checks.
The original first caller leads for 1200 (very competent player who I have tons of history with, probably hardest spot at the table, never leading here light, has between over pairs and sets)
Two callers (including Villain 2) by the time it gets to me, I flat (thoughts?), BB folds
Villain 1 now C/raises to 7k more
All fold to villain 2, who calls.
To me, now playing 21kish, what do you do?  And what do you do different?

Both Villains cover, Vilian 2 starting the hand with about 28k

Pretty sure it's going in.

Likely to be either loads of dead money or if it goes 3 way you've got the right odds to hit your flush.

Good luck.

I think* you have the odds to do both call and shove, even with only one caller, even if facing a set and just drawing to your spade outs.  I think you should now be aiming to take the most aggressive action.  Sometimes people fold the strangest stuff (like 33). I also think the call of the 1200 is fine, with that many in a pot there is always a decent chance you are facing a set.

It feels bad getting all your chips in behind, but think the maths dictates it here.  It has just turned a bit messy, but you just need to let the maths speak and I don't think you did much wrong.

There is always a chance the check raiser has a combo draw too, which puts you in better shape than you expect.

Doobs

* I haven't checked this, I was up late yesterday and up early today, so struggling to be absolutely sure, and am not planning to stay up and make absolutely sure!

Is the 1st caller who led post-flop for 1200 still in the hand and to act behind you? If yes, and you're assigning 2 pair/sets to them then it's a fold surely, only 1200 invested? If he folded to the check-raise by villain 1 then def shoving based on the info you have

Thoughts on leading flop?

This logic looks wrong.  The more people in the pot, the more chips are in the pot and the better the shove or call is.  If the non pairing spade hits we scoop no matter if there are 5 villians or just 1 in the pot.

The post flop leader has folded.

Might fold non NFDs but jamming this now I think

I think i'd c/r the flop

Even if I give the guy 2p+ I'm not folding because of all the dead money.

I also might donk the flop.

gl ;)

dnt likee donking the flop. chking keeps weaker hands in the pot and raising gives us most FE. chk/call prolly slightly better but we might not get to realise our equity as often OTT, but gte to keep weaker draws in, chk/raising will from time to time get us in with 30% eq. and may freeze weaker draws out but defo has a lot of FE and means we nearly always realise our equity.

Yeah I considered this, pretty much was the original plan on the flop.  The problem I had was that we were still six way the second time it came around to me, one person who I know isn't light and who will know that they are not always beat if I c/r.  The table was pretty loose passive too, just had visions of getting four callers and seeing a blank turn roll off.  Now I've bloated the pot OOP and lost half of my equity in the hand, now what?

Re:  Leading the flop, truth be told I don't donk lead enough (in other words, ever.  Meh, at least it's balanced that way).  I know I have to start doing it but I'm not sure this was the spot to pop that particular cherry.

Sorry completely misread the first post.

Seems like a good spot to 3bet squeeze pre flop. Any thoughts on this line tommy?

think c/r flop is best line -- don't mind a squeeze pre but think flatting fine too.

as played I'm just zipping it right here and letting people call off worse (which they defo can have at least some small % (dominated draws, ldo)) or giving us two free shots to smash it on the turn if (as you suspect) we're behind to 2pr+ (which they can defo have, but also can be getting it in lighter than this, too!).

Flatting means we might get tempted to do something stupid like fold if we don't smash the turn and tis hard to realise equity.

think I'd donk the flop. Would do with all sets and two pairs and combo draws too and we have a really good hand here. Puts OR in a tough spot and will have to fold all hands <overpairs.

get it in now, fk it.

Easy for you to say, you'll get there. Me? Not so much.

I know calling is wrong, and getting it in is better in terms of realising the value, but we have 21k at 100/200 on what I believe is a fairly long clock, so how bad would it be to fold?

On a scale of 1-10?

Calling the 1200 can't be wrong.  Getting 5/1 on a shorter than 5/1 chance must be fine. 

I don't think it is nearly so clear that realising equity by check raising is always best, especially if we do so at a bad price.  I think people are underestimating the possibility of facing a set on a 6 way flop.  I'd prefer squeezing pre to check raising this flop.

When it comes back with the raise to 7k and a call, then the maths changes and we may as well get it in even if we are likely to be facing at least one set most of the time.  We are likely getting it in bad, but getting the right price to do so. 

It is likely we (TommyD) have a decent edge in this competition, but we only have that edge by making the right decisions and I don't think folding is the right decision.

Thank you all for the replies, I really appreciate them.

Result

I did jam.  I think I have a small amount of FE against V1 and good equity in the hand.  I think I have zero FE against V2 but great equity and will be ahead sometimes.

V1 took ten minutes of anguish over his decision, more tortured it was multiway and he couldn't directly talk to me about the hand.  After ten minutes he asked one of his friends at the table to call the clock on him, they obliged and 30 seconds into the clock he folded.  (In a comedy fashion he later claimed to have Queens after the competent player, a friend, already claimed that hand and is never lying here.  No idea what V1 had, maybe claimed Queens to make it sound like more of a fold when it was a 33 or something, maybe saving face with lower spades, Kings or such).

V2 snapped with  Td 8d and we held.

Despite the result I still came away thinking I played the hand pretty crappy.  However after a friend of mine with a much better game said they thought I played the well I got thinking 'What else was I supposed to do?'

If it's ok I'd like some thoughts on the following:

My problems with 3betting pre:  The table was very peel happy.  More of a problem was V2 had put a chip in the pot.  While most at the table weren't that perceptive, even the passing valet would know that he was 100% calling, giving people much better odds in their minds to peel as well.  Also if we get 4bet by OR it's a pretty trivial fold.

My problems leading the flop:  I freely admit I don't donk lead enough, it's something I need to identify if and when to do so.  Maybe this is a clear lead.  I would have no problem leading/3betting to get it in if I thought that was going to be the result.  I just thought I would get at least 2 callers, maybe more, to a lead.  Then where do I go on a brick turn?  Am I getting myself ready to empty the clip?

My problems c/ring the flop first time round:  The competent player is either b/fing TT-QQ or betting sets/2p hands.  Of all the ranges on the table, he's the worst one for me to get it in with and I'm not sure raise/folding to him is the correct play.  Plus I have great odds to hit or get away on the turn, plus a full field to get value out of if I hit when plenty of worse draws can be in there as well as plenty of stubborn pairs.  I never saw V1 C/ring at the time, ingame was sure he would peel.

Calling the 7k is wrong.

Calling the 1200 multiway is pretty easy I looked at numbers earlier and we're around 30% to win outright if we give one villain a range that is just sets and the other a combo of sets, draws and two pair type hands. If they both have sets then that changes a bit, but whatever they have it seems pretty certain we only win the hand by hitting a safe spade.

Wouldn't squeeze pre. Your hand is too good.

Standard would be to donk but seems you played it well.

Ok. IMO the best way to exploit a Villian who is a station pre flop is to 3bet our value hands and I believe AQss falls into this category. If you had AK here would you 3 bet? If Villian 4bets a capped range only (KK/AA/AK) then sure we can pass. But if he flats our 3 bet with all aces, all queens we can get some clean value from him and win a big pot and we can put pressure on all his pairs that don't make sets. But what do I know I haven't won as much as you ;)

I can see the point if this was going to go HU with V2 most of the time but it's not one station here, I'm OOP to the tube map pre.

peel AQs always live multiway in this comp

would be my standard I think

planning to bet-3b/get it in?

Donking really the stnd? Seems a bit bowl multi-way.

Its not my standard, but it seems a better way to play this hand when it goes so many ways to the flop

My school of thought would be that the more players there is worse the donk lead is with just a draw. With a set or 2 pair it's a little better I feel.

Does not compute...

Dave is saying he doesn't like it BECAUSE it is so multiway, Tom is saying that's why he likes it.

I'm with Tom at the moment, but Dave is always right so....

the reason I think donking has merit is because we'd be able to 3bet ship over a flop raise with a decent chunk of fold equity, no-one's really gonna raise/fold this flop multi-way so when we donk-3bet jam we get it in vs a really really strong range. So i'd rather chk/call and keep weaker draws and weaker 1p hands involved and the turn isn't going to be that hard hard to play without initiative (we might miss out realising our equity from time to time when we c/f the turn) but other good things can happen like the turn be 3 way and get checked through etc, or chk/raise (admitedly when we chk-raise/call we get it in vs a very strong range, but this way when our biggest bet goes in we have a legitimate amount of FE)

my thoughts, very briefly-

weaker 1p hands and weaker draws are far more likely to call a bet than bet themselves though?

we can rep far stronger range by donking

not getting raised very often at all, only if someone has a set or two pair probably.

Just think of the playability of this hand vs those ranges, multi-way.

I dont agree you rep stronger by donking, I think you rep weaker. People are going to bluff A's and Q's quite a bit once we c/c as our hand looks like a weak toppair type hand, I don't think us betting, and being called be weak 1p hands, and raised by magnum stuff is all that desireable personally.

In fact the more I think about it the more I just don't really see any need to donk anything here. I think this hand specifically plays quite nicely without the initiative.

here my donking range would be non-nut flush draws, T8 and maybe like JJ/TT, decent 9x hands.

I think when we lead we are DEFINITELY repping a much weaker range than a multi-way check raise, I'm very surprised that idea is even in discussion tbh.

I would only c/r top two, sets and the nut fd (maybe the T8ss actually too) because of all of the things Lil D said previously. We get to inflate the pot vs showdown hands that we have a lot of equity against and can make fold at some point, and worse draws that we can charge and pump up their reverse implied for the times when we both make our flush.

I think we get so much more credit for a huge hand when we c/r that this is the best way to apply maximum pressure on the hands that are ahead of us, whilst simultaneously getting value from dominated draws.

I don't even think it's close, c/r every day of every week.