blonde poker forum

So we're playing 1/1 at dtd, pretty solid game, and it's been going pretty well. Then one of these spots comes up, where I was pretty sure it was going up on the HH thing here very early in the hand.

So, we have JJ in the SB. UTG raises to 4, middle position three bets to 12. Folds to the btn, who calls the 12. Utg is playing about 400, the same as us, middle position is playing 150, late position is playing about 80. Do we squeeze, and if so what sizing?

1) Assume we squeeze to 45, and get two callers from UTG an MP. Flop comes  3s 5c 6s. We c bet, and get three bet by UTG, and middle position shoves. We?

2) Assume we flat, and see the same flop. How should we proceed? Assume we donk 29, believing this board will be checked round a lot, and get raised by UTG and middle position ships it. We?

3) Assume we check, utg raises to 27, Mp makes it 65, btn folds, we?

I'll have a crack before the clever people turn up.

The problem with cold calling pre is you aren't closing the action, so a 4bet gives you the lead, options for making a play and information. 30 and be prepared to fold if UTG 5bets. We don't mind going multi way, but we are at least in shape to make rational decisions on the flop.

1.45 is a funny number because it implies that you would call if UTG 5bets and the chap on 80 gets his chips in. There's too much there not to call, etc. As to your question, this is an easy fold IMO. Why get it in with a mid overpair in the face of so much aggression?

2. As above, probably, as your 4-bet is going to be an effective all in after 29/80/150.

3. That's the only spot where you can consider a play by virtue of stack sizes, but I don't see what you are repping of real strength to check-raise. It's a set or a draw. You might get QQ to fold and possibly AKss, but I suspect a disciplined approach of letting those jacks go might be more profitable.


Very interested to hear views on this. Suspect I'm waaaaaay nittier than most

Depends who these players are, but I'm very happy to click it with the intention of isoing the shortstack. We can go ahead and make it £41. Most 1/1 players will let you know if they have a monster utg here.

Generally what I'd expect to happen is utg folds and then you have a nice easy all-in against either player. If utg raises you have a nice easy fold. Can't see what hands they would open 4x and then flat the 41 with, but this is the same as raising unless they are absolutely clueless.

Flatting puts us in too much of an awkward spot. Make a list of hands you want to play oop in a 4-way pot and it's generally going to consist of the fit-or-fold type hands (22-88 looking to mine a set, your 76s, your T8s etc) It's certainly not going to consist of hands that are likely to be strong overpairs with no visibility.

We're only 4b/f versus one opponent in this hand so I think it's fine. It's certainly better than calling and losing £400 post-flop when we level ourselves versus QQ, it's better than calling and losing £400 when we lose a flip against 7s 5s, and it's definitely better than bet-folding the flop versus the deepstack to have him show you 99 or something.

Names of villains or info on villains' tendencies would help greatly. Also, would be good to know why you've chosen to play in a game that you're describing as "solid."

Well, solid as in a good game to sit in. Adrian is the guy utg, middle position is a reg whose name i should know but don't, but we talk a fair bit. Nice guy, bit of a gambler and doesn't seem to take poker massively seriously, but plays for love of the game. Btn is a Canadian guy I had never met before, who was frankly clueless, despite having evidently played the game for a long time. Well, by played, i mean looked at pictures on cardboard and thrown pretty buttons into the middle. For all I know, he could have thought it was tiddlywinks with an added twist of cards. Well ok, he wasn't that bad, but still, point stands.

squeezing readless would be pretty bad, i would rather fold heh.

how are these even questions, especially number 1? not even close to becoming close, KK would be close.

huh we are 150 and 400bb deep

utg has opened

somebody has then 3x 3bet

even the third guy has 80bbs lol

Biggest troll ever.

I feel there is two ways to play this hand in this particular situation. You can squeeze and fold to utgs jam but hopefully play for stacks vs a short stack. Especially the 3bettor in this hand who had show tendencies to be willing to get it in with any pair. So making it 40ish commits you to the short stacks but you can 4b/f vs a utg shove.

Option two is to play it like a small pair and flat purely with the intention to set mine. If you flat you can never donk the flop, I prefer just check folding a lot of flops if you opt to just flat pre unless you flop a set obv. In this particular hand if you flat pre, check flop, utg bets, mp raises and it's an easy fold or you.

I don't mind either option against the players in question. I probably prefer squeezing because you know the player utg well and know he will never 5bet you light oop and will fold most of his range facing a 3bet, a flat and a 4bet. So your decision are much easier if you squeeze. A defined plan of bet fold vs utg and if he folds play for stacks vs two gambling short stacks

me? or somebody hacked your acct for op?

Nope, definitely you. Why post if you have nothing constructive to say? You seem to do this a lot on this board. Just post in a way that comes across as very arrogant and condescending, for pretty much no reason. If you think analysing a hand is beneath you, then don't post.

ok ill keep my opinions off board, apologies.

I have gave Pleno stick for putting up loads of hands that didn't need to be posted and generally over thinking/analysing stuff but no way is he a troll, complete opposite, he goes totally out of his way to help people on this board when loads of people, myself included, gave up ages ago. I think your post is way out of line to him as whilst you may not agree with his tone/style in this thread- his post was constructive.

+1 to Dubai although Pleno does look a little bit like a baby troll. Bless

he's so small he just loves the game!

well i'd quite like a fold in all situations. I'd probably only cold 4 and proceed to put more money in if the opponents had never played poker before and didnt like money.

Ok, I'll take back the earlier comment about being a troll. But the following comment still stands, the tone of these posts is kinda unnecessary, and this basically makes them unconstructive. It's very hard to take serious note of someone's advice when it seems like they're taking a dig at the fact that you're asking for the advice in the first place.


This, for example, is in no way a useful comment, and really is only ever going to make me feel pretty defensive, for absolutely no reason. Tbh, I think most people are going to find it difficult to react to this sort of post in a positive way, other than ignoring it completely, which defeats the object of posting in the first place. I apologise if i caused offence with the word "troll".

Squeezing JJ this deep in a 'solid' game is never likely to end well. Just set mine and on flops like the one described try to keep the pot as small as possible.

A good way of keeping a pot small is to not put any further money in to it.

Donking would be classed as putting money in so should be avoided.

With some good reads and a spewey image you've got a lovely hand where squeezing and donking would work well.

As described you've got a bit of a dog in the worst possible seat.

How about we all agree everybody hates jacks and move on?

Can't possibly agree with this.

All you have to do is get blind drunk, throw a load of money about and show a few bluffs.

After that jacks become absolutely delightful.

Yeah I'm 0 for 3 there

:)

Agree that jacks are delightful. I like the 4th best starting hand sober too. and 64s.

Knowing neither of you well but both of you a little....

It looks to me like you've read his comments and taken them a little too much to heart.

Tbh mate, in this spot I wouldn't ever be considering doing anything other than flatting oop and hoping to see a flop 4 ways oop.  We make a great setmining hand and can even play our hand for value, even if we have to play it a little more passively than we'd like.

We are readless vs the two we're going to be committed to getting it in vs (JJ 'might' not be bad to get in.. but in small live games they're often not 'great' either - not aggressive enough dynamics ime).

We don't want to be getting into a pot vs the UTG when his continuing range will crush us and he will be IP with a reasonable PSR.



Also, just because someone doesn't sugar coat it - doesn't make it bad advice.
I guess what I'm trying to say (but tired so forgive me) is that thinking about another raise here, is bad.  Very bad, purely because of the general population tendancies at this level.

We have JJ, its like the 'best' setmining hand... because it can even be good without a triplet.

Pleno's comments were a little kurt, however they are correct.  Your two questions are crazy...even I say snap fold in both situations.
We're playing £1/1 because they're NOT wizards.... if they were we could've got it in pre.  If they are raising and reraising on this texture with 77-1010, LET THEM have it!

Just reread this for the first time in nearly a year.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=58371.msg1602177#msg1602177

Completely forgot about the 83 hand lol. Happy days, when raising unnecessarily didn't get me chastened.

I don't play 1/1 regularly but it seems to me their ranges will be stronger when they 3b, so I'm pretty happy to call; calling doesn't mean set-mining, it means sometimes saving money when an overcard hits and we were up against a higher overpair, saving money when we would have 4b and they call correctly with overcards and hit, and saving money when we 4b and they call (incorrectly) with underpairs and hit. Lots of people call along even OOP so there's no particular reason our hand should look that strong, and we definitely rate to get paid off if we hit a set. When we 4b the best result we can see is people folding, because when 1 calls, someone ends up calling behind, and then we have no idea what to do on A/K/Q-high flops, where we generally have an easy c/f on those boards when we don't hit. Yes, we're going to end up in some troublesome spots when we just flat and the pot goes 4-ways, but for much smaller pots and against much wider (weaker) ranges than when we 4bet, and we possibly fold out some disciplined lower pairs that we might have coolered.

If you were absolutely terrible postflop I would probably make it £50 and discourage action.

Postflop:

1) I fold now, the guy with lots of money behind is saying he likes the flop in the face of you liking your hand a lot preflop, and the hand is very likely to go to showdown. If he ended up raising a worse hand than yours right now he likely still has some equity and you're allowed to be bluffed sometimes.

2) If you donk after flatting and face the same action as above it's a harder fold but still a fold. You're hoping one villain is on a lower pair and the other is on a draw. Even then you're not in great shape.

3) Fold still!

we all know what norman chad says... jacks are just tens in disguise, tens are just nines in disguise, nines are just eights in diguise. so jacks is bacisally a disguised pocket 2s ;) eassyyyy fold then ;)

Yh flat pre-flop, the "good" thing about pocket John's is that whereas you have a nice set-mining oppurtunity, with nice stacks but also you give yourself the "chance" to have a pretty strong bluff catcher - I'm not saying we should be hell bent on stationing down with JJ on raggy runouts btw! And a situation might crop up in the hand where you face a bet and can legitimately beat a few value bets, or be able to value bet yourself without making a set - a luxury you rarely have with 88 or 77. 4betting here in these games really just Iso's you against some very strong ranges (which you'll still do OK vs)

As played, in the 3 questions you posed, Pleno is right they are all non brainers, 1) we bet, get raised (HATING a single raise even on this board) and then shoved on, its a very straightforward pass almost irrespective of the opponents - play with ranges in pokerstove for 5 hours you'll never get any reasonable ranges for the pair of them to make stacking off here anything near pleasant.

2) This wouldn't really be a good donk, we have no connection to the board at all, we're OOP, have bad visibility (we're gonna hate a lot of turn cards and not know whether to bet/fold or chk/call or w/e) all we're really achieving is taking the random c-bets and stabs out of our opponents ranges, and we're giving them a brilliant oppurtunity to semi-bluff us by giving them the option of the second bet. Facing just one raise would suck, 2 is a very easy fold imo.

3) Again, simple fold, we're not closing the action and the raiser will have good equity against us definately.

Number 3, calling PF and chking and folding to the flop action is the best way to play, its a crime of inexperience in deep stacked play getting yourself into trouble with these hands in these spots, it's ot a tournament, we can fold "the best hand" here and there if it avoids horrible troublesome spots for us - this hand didnt need to be a disaster.

I think this thinking is so underrated. Keeping things simple for us, passing marginal spots especially live where you will be able to find much better opportunities with lower risk. ESPECIALLY at these stakes.