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Title: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: cambridgealex on May 28, 2013, 01:47:03 AM 50euro french comp, very deep itm.
Seat #8 is the button Seat 1: ..POUCOTCHE (974741) Seat 2: messcar (709390) Seat 3: Sr Croissant (2008777) Seat 4: ctlime (1914711) Seat 5: RushorDie (1905788) Seat 6: DarkFitz (2283162) Seat 7: arsene&lupin (1200887) Seat 8: CrapsBaz (1046373) Seat 9: ramols78 (604130) *** ANTE/BLINDS *** ramols78 posts ante 6200 ..POUCOTCHE posts ante 6200 messcar posts ante 6200 Sr Croissant posts ante 6200 ctlime posts ante 6200 RushorDie posts ante 6200 DarkFitz posts ante 6200 arsene&lupin posts ante 6200 CrapsBaz posts ante 6200 ramols78 posts small blind 25000 ..POUCOTCHE posts big blind 50000 Dealt to Sr Croissant [Qh Th] *** PRE-FLOP *** messcar folds Sr Croissant raises 50000 to 100000 ctlime folds RushorDie folds DarkFitz calls 100000 arsene&lupin folds CrapsBaz folds ramols78 folds ..POUCOTCHE calls 50000 *** FLOP *** [5d Tc 9c] ..POUCOTCHE checks Sr Croissant checks DarkFitz bets 175000 ..POUCOTCHE folds Sr Croissant calls 175000 *** TURN *** [5d Tc 9c][6h] Sr Croissant checks DarkFitz bets 325000 Sr Croissant calls 325000 *** RIVER *** [5d Tc 9c 6h][As] Sr Croissant checks DarkFitz bets 600000 Sr Croissant folds Cbet flop yeh? Went 3 ways, decided to pot control because I didn't feel I could get 3 streets, nor would I feel comfortable getting raised or getting it in. But now I've made it hard to play, hard to know where I am and easy for him to do this because my range is so capped. Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: DMorgan on May 28, 2013, 01:58:56 AM Yep I'd cbet. I think people will generally make your life easy by never c/raising this board light and peeling the stuff you have great equity against.
As played I'd c/fold turn. Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: Tal on May 28, 2013, 08:25:50 AM If I posted this hand, I reckon you'd tell me to bet the flop.
Would you not want to get 2+ streets from QJ/KXcc? Even induce a raise? You're both very deep, so seems little harm to me in getting some money in the pot. For now, when Villain bets the river, what range of hands (sorry if the word 'range' is outmoded, bit you know what I mean) is he putting you on? You must have something, so he is either trying to get you off the sort of hand you have (I'd expect QT is the absolute top of your range?) and it is a bluff, or he is trying to get value from a huge hand. Polarised range then? Feel free to ROFL at the "on the way to work" analysis. Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: wazz on May 28, 2013, 10:36:57 AM 2 streets of value at best seems right but the flop is generally the safest of the 3, for the reasons Dan gave.
Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: Honeybadger on May 28, 2013, 08:01:43 PM But now I've made it hard to play, hard to know where I am and easy for him to do this because my range is so capped. IMO the concept of 'making it hard to play by giving up the initiative' is an illusion. Keeping the initiative feels like the easiest way to play a hand, primarily due to the times your opponent folds. But when your cbet gets flatted IP (or even raised) it does not feel 'easy to play' any more. Now you are in a 'difficult to play spot' in a bloated pot, and you have narrowed your opponent's range through betting. This is the sort of flop that position is extremely important on, and thus is really difficult to play OOP. That's just unlucky, and you won't always get such an unfortunate flop. The concept of not being able to get three streets is a crucial one, particularly when OOP. However, in this particular spot it is probably still better to bet your hand. Yes, you cannot usually go for three streets and thus you are going to shop your hand as a bluff catcher when you check the river (or the turn). But betting is the best of several bad options. The main reason for betting is that you prevent your opponent realising his equity with the weakest parts of his range - the parts that would either bluff or check-back if you check. Most of your opponent's air on this flop will have around 25% equity, and thus you do gain something when an opponent folds a hand like Ad Jc. Moreover, when you bet it puts the villain behind you in an uncomfortable position since he has to worry not just about you having a hand, but also about the first villain potentially planning a check-raise. So he cannot float you with a really weak 'out-of-line' range. It can work out nicely if the villain in position folds and then the other villain calls. Now you are IP and can much more easily take a bet flop/bet turn/check river line since when you check the river it finishes the hand. Sometimes you've got to take bet/bet/check lines even when OOP, and this is mainly the case on flops like this one in which your opponent will have at least 25% equity even with his weaker hands. It sucks when you have to check/decide on the river, but that's just something you have to accept. You got a shitty flop when OOP. Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: Dubai on May 28, 2013, 08:04:32 PM Hand looks fine if you call river.
Title: Re: Given up the initiative, given up the pot? Post by: titaniumbean on May 28, 2013, 08:13:22 PM how quickly did he bet river, I wants to calls
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