blonde poker forum

Generally what is the right play in this spot?

Live Deepstack Torney. Mid way through Day 1. Blinds 400/800. Average 60k. I am currently sitting with 120k.

UTG+1, (oldish guy, nitty) playing 70k. Open 1800.
CO (solid player, see's flops, from showdown doesn't three bet unless ++) playing 150k, flats. Only player on table that has me covered.
We look down in HJ, at Ahrt Aspades and three bet to 5100.

Both call.

Kh Qs 2h

Check, Check. I make it 8200.
First guy calls and now solid player (CO) makes it 19000.

What do we do?

I flat to see brick turn / heart turn and re-evaluate.
Other player, folds.

Turn  7c
He makes 42k. We have like 90k+ behind.

Is this ever a jam?


(Edited Positions as got them initially wrong)

Also,

Is my threebet pre, too small?

yh 3bet could be a little bigger over TWO players.

As played I think you should fold. You may have the best hand but will be dodging loads of cards, the 70k guy might have something slow-played, if he's got AK or doing something with a worse value hand then that's terrible and I think we cant really give him credit for a Js 9s type bluff with no reads.

Just sigh and wait, deepstacked play you have to be able to just let this type of hand go cos small mistakes are massive in big pots.

Think the 3 bet pre is slightly too small considering the nitty guy is probably not raise/folding hardly anything of his range if as described.

Think this is a pretty easy but frustrating fold after the raise on the flop.

Same thinking.
With the Ahrt, it covers so many decent combos,  Ahrt Jh , Ahrt Qh. Generally, wouldn't expect a solid decent player 3/4 to pot it on turn with  Jh Th and below draws, as they can so easily be jammed on and structure is long?

Hands like KJ, K10, finding out where they are on the flop all check back turn to pot control? Way it was played, always feels like KQ or 22?

It does feel like a fold on the flop as its difficult to put villian on a value hand we beat and he doesn't have many semi bluffs either.

3bet pre to be a bit bigger as already mentioned. Only thing we could do different I guess is to just fold the flop in this instance. As played obviously fold the turn.

Just feels like sets and 2 pairs here.

Bet sizzing on 3bet to small . It's a fold . Agreed 100000000# with Dave the great

Thankyou.would you not feel evaluting turn is the best line in these spots?

I think he could play Jh Th like this, bags of fold equity and tough for you to call down without KK or QQ. However if the hand you're scrapping about for him to have is Jh Th then this isnt a good spot, as Jh Th has a very real chance of beating you if the cards go on their backs! having the  Aspades blocks a lot of the best bluffing combos ( Aspades Js would be a cool hand to pick to bluff with here if he wanted to bluff for example) having the  Ahrt not sure how relevant that is, as i don't think he'd raise  Ahrt Jh here as he'd be in a woeful spot if you were to 3bet the flop.

"evaluating the turn" is one of those blanket expressions people use when they have a hand they really don't want to fold but realise they are behind to a legit value range, what people actually mean is "call, and hope he checks the turn."

if he's capable of raising here light then he's also going to be capable of betting the right turn often enough to still leave you lost OTT, there is nothing whatsoever wrong, in deepstacked situations, in just folding a very strong part of your range in a bid to avoid difficult decisions on later streets - playing guessing games with deep stacks is very dangerous.

3bet pre is waaaaay too small. I would make it like 8-9k and still expect to get at least one call. I'm making it this big with my semibluffs too. People love seeing flops and doing crazy things, especially if they're getting a good price.

Postflop, folding your aces getting such a good price is soooo exploitable. But it's so much more exploitative and I think it rocks when you don't give people action with such a monster, when they obviously have you beat. Sure, he could be playing a draw like this, but we block some of those draws, and sure, he could be spazzing out and playing one pair like this and hoping to have a worse hand call and a better hand fold at the same time, but even adding those two possibilities together is a bit of a stretch and both hands have equity vs you.

As played I would still fold the turn as his occasional 1 pair spazout hands likely check back the turn.

Thankyou.

The thing is we know he is betting the turn close to 100% after taking this Flop line and if another heart drops we still have to fold to his turn bet. The best possible cards on the turn is a deuce or an ace.

We are cbetting 2 opponents on a wet flop so our range looks strong yet villian who is deacribed as solid is still happy to check raise 2 players including the old nitty guy. Feels like villian only has: KQ/QQ/KK/22 and Jh 10h. We have blockers for AA and AK.

It's not nice to fold aces on this flop but given action I believe it's the best play. Plus we are OOP on the turn so it's harder to evaluate.

I don't like the term evaluate either ;)

Damn you dave getting in the "I hate evaluate" before me grrrrr

Much quicker at typing than me

haha ;)

Haha, in this spot, I felt 'evaluating' turn was the best line. Just purely, as he was taking betting lead in hands with position on flops, checking back turns and value betting top pair type hands on river.  And if he checks back turnj, I know he is value towning himself with hands like AK, KJ, AQ. But, as mentioned, this range is very slim compared to dominating and combos hands in this spot.

Cheers guys.

I was 100% certain you said MP limps, good player limps button and you squeeze the small

Then you bet flop and MP folds

Yeah wasnt 100% certain exact positions and etc. when writing so thats why I began the post with
"General, what is the best play in this spot."
Just to get s general feel for the best option. :)

Over limping button as opposed to calling a raise and MP calling/folding flop are pretty huge :P

Depending upon  the exact image of the OR, this is an incredible spot to min 3b, assuming he is a super nit and he is going to 4b quite a lot, peelers gonna peel and then we can bomb 5 ball

(this is a feel thing it is really dependant by the exact 2 players in the hand). I am only min 3b if I believe the 4b is coming a significant % of the time

Yeah 3bet bigger, cbet bigger yadda yadda...

But apart from that, something about this hand has been bothering me. His raise-sizing is just completely weird. And really bad. I cannot think of a single hand that would be good to make this small-sized check-raise with. It is terrible with any hand. Yet you described him as a 'solid player'. Weird.

Thing is we know he has made a badly sized raise, but we don't know what subset of hands he thinks it is good to play this way. I guess we divide them into the following:

A) Nutted stuff. Depending on how he plays preflop he can have 9 combos of KQ, 3 combos of QQ and 3 combos of 22. I am completely ruling out KK. It is not certain he has all combos of KQ or QQ since you'd think he would 3bet QQ some of the time, and should not flat a tight EP raiser with KQo.
Why is his raise size bad with these hands? Because of the board texture (wet and semi-coordinated). A ton of cards can turn that either lose him the pot or lose him his action. His tiny check-raise does not get 'value' from weaker made hands or draws, and does not protect his equity/put opponents in tough spots with their draws. BTW I'd also count JhTh as a 'nutted hand' too, since he will probably jam over a 3bet on the flop. But this is only one combo, and of course we block all hands like AhJh/AhTh/AhQh etc.

B) Mid-strength made hands or draws. This would be stuff like KJ, KT, AQ, QhJh, Jh9h, JsTs etc. Plenty of combos of these sort of hands. It would be terrible to raise this sort of range (whatever sizing he uses) because he would be 'overplaying' a mid-equity hand in a really crappy spot, and is going to find himself in a horrible spot on the turn in a bloated pot when his tiny raise is flatted, let alone if he is 3bet. I guess the (flawed) reasoning behind someone playing a hand this way is that they want to 'find out where I am', or 'protect my hand', or just 'OMG I have top pair/a draw, I raise... but it is not very strong... so I raise small'.

C)Low-equity bluffs. This could be something like Js9s - i.e. a 'good bluffing hand' due to having some equity - or perhaps just some random zero-equity stuff because he is donking around without really thinking much and maybe just fancies trying a cheap bluff to see what happens. Why is this bad? It is almost never going to fold any made hand or draw given the great price he is laying, plus this board connects strongly with preflop ranges, plus someone has already check-called the flop so it is not even a HU pot etc. Plus, he should never be raising so small with the nutted parts of his range so he shouldn't be doing it with bluffs either.

If we knew with a fair degree of reliability (soul reads FTW) what group of hands he is playing badly in this way then we could take a direct exploitative line. If we somehow know he is likely to have a nutted hand here (he thinks this is the way he should play his monsters) then we crush him by folding. If we somehow know he has a mid-strength made hand/draw then we punish him by 3betting the flop and put him in a really horrible spot with 9h8h or KsJs. If we know he has a zero-equity bluff then we simply call, and hope he barrels.

However, since we do not know exactly what hand he is playing weirdly with then we do best to flat the check-raise and play the turn in position. It is going to be muddy and unclear, but it will be the same for him (and the other opponent) too. And we are in position, which really helps in these muddy spots.

Tbh, although I rarely agree with Guy about poker hands (sorry Guy ;)), I did sort of like his idea of making a small 3bet on the flop since this would punish him most effectively for check-raising his mid-strength hands. My gut instinct/experience is that this is what you are going to see pretty often in this spot... KJ or 9h8h, that sort of thing. And in-game (i.e. with some sort of feel for the opponent) I might choose this if I feel strongly that his range is weighted towards these sort of hands. But, since I was not at the table I cannot really advise this... so I am sticking with the flatting the 3bet option.

On the turn I think you should fold, barring a ninja-read obviously. This would be an exploitative fold (from a GTO POV we should not fold) based on the fact that I think his turn bet and sizing makes it so very likely that he has a nutted hand. Obviously it is always a concern that he is massively overplaying KJ or something similar because he thinks top pair is the nuts, and is thus going to accidentally outplay us. But this happens from time to time, and I think he usually just has a nutted hand here. When he does accidentally outplay us with KJ you just realise that he has doubled you up the times you have a stronger hand yourself, or the times you got to draw cheaply on the flop and hit it on the turn, or the times you choose not to fold AA or AK on this turn.

I guess what you have done by flatting the turn is to use your position to continue in the hand and allow him to shop the likely real strength of his hand with his big turn bet. I realise that calling planning to evaluate the turn can sometimes lead to problems, especially if all you are doing is hoping that he does not bet again. However, this is poker... we are allowed to give ourselves extra decision points in hands in which to make the right choices, using our full range of poker skills. We might choose not to fold the turn after all - it would depend on his bet-sizing, and perhaps also our gut-feeling (yes I know... Stu the live fish ;)). Also, we are getting a great price just to get to SD and win even if it only occasionally gets checked through to the river (and it will do sometimes). And finally, we are allowed to call with a bluff catcher on the flop and fold it on the turn, or even call flop and turn but fold it on the river. The popular idea that this is somehow wrong is completely incorrect in both a theoretical and a practical sense.

norrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


oioiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii


norrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr - I obv meant pre



the only problem with min3b this flop is you rep one hand and he likely has the blockers with his made hands, therefore its not gonna work

Lol <3 Guy xxx

Yeah I was a bit concerned that I partly liked something you said about poker ;)
Glad we got that cleared up.

Not sure why you say a flop 3bet (doesn't have to be a min 3bet btw) 'won't work' because we 'rep one value hand'. How do you define 'not working'? The rationale behind 3betting is if you somehow strongly believe he has a mid-strength hand like KJ or a non-nut FD. You punish him for raising a de-polarised range by 3betting. If he has KJ he had a bluff catcher on the flop and by choosing to raise instead of bluff catch he has given you the opportunity to force him to sometimes call down in a bigger pot with said bluff catcher.

I have this horrific inkling that you are going to say "Ahhh... but if he has KJ he will realise you only have one combo of KK and will thus turn his hand into a bluff by 4bet piling on you". I know that's what you would think and do you crazy legend. But you have true heart and commitment, not to mention a gigantic set of cojones; something which is not shared by the average "I will raise KJ on KQ2 because I have top pair and think it may be the best hand" breed of players.

The vast majority of guys who raise KJ (or whatever) will squirm and hate life when 3bet, wish to themselves that they had just called, think for ages about folding... then always call. Because they have top pair.

I think this is my favourite post ever on blonde (esp the bold bit). Im just gonna leave it there

I really must make time to speak with you about poker. We should do dinner sometime. I might actually learn something, and I can teach you how to play satellite bubbles off a big stack ;0)

Lol Guy. 72o FTW right?

Yeah I'm always up for eating!

mmmm think i've gotta disagree, yh the raise size is really kinda terrible but i'm sure as a default in these things you should assume people are going bad for value, the type of player who plays these things generically DEFO will not have KJ/KT type hand here I think the best default exploitative line by a long way is to fold.

Yeah it depends on your personal view on default reads in this sort of spot I guess. As well as your actual 'at the table read' (more important).

I don't think folding the flop is right without a ridiculously clear and certain read though. It would be a HUGE adjustment, and we should not make huge adjustments without complete ninja-reads.