blonde poker forum

Background

Hand played tonight in Live casino.  Near start of evening game was just 1/1 NLH, but several of us broke from table to play 1/1 ROE.

Classifying villain is a little difficult. No previous history, but in 90 mins of NLH he didn't seem spazzy - although made one strange ss limp shove on my btn sqeeze and got there with a9 v aj. He hasn't been massively out of line at PLO, has won some good pots - but also made one or two strange calls to get there.  He isn't a casino reg, but attire and bearing suggests he may be a pub/club player. Perhaps he dabbles a little online.

I was a little aggro earlier in NLH when in position, but since then on ROE I have been very disciplined.  I have played my hands hard and fast, been rewarded and am table bigstack.  He may view me as TAG more than LAG.  No previous history other than tonight.

Player on Btn is a PLO player, but has some good NLH moves and is not afraid to mix it.  BB is super nit. (For Gouty this is Haq and Wally lol)

Villain has £321, I cover with £525.

The Hand

Villain raises UTG to £4
Hero in MP with Black Kings raise to £13
Btn Calls
BB Calls

Villain 4bets to £34

Hero 5bets to £55

Btn and BB both Fold

Villain 6bet shoves £321

I fold

Question

1. Do you prefer to see a flop and flat IP his 4bet?

2. Thoughts on my clickback?

3. Can u EVER not fold?

I think its a clear fold, but my reason for posting this is my decision to 5b.

My reasoning for clicking back was that when he 4 bet the hackles went up, as I'm not expecting him to 4bet anything other than aa/kk/qq/ak (and probably not even ak). I'd love to flat IP, but am wary of facing a flop stuck inbetween potential aces and an experienced player (that has the ability to make moves).

So I want to kick the 2 old boys out of the pot, but at the same time retain some sort of pot control and/or try and get AA out in the open.  I think betting chunky leaves me in a tough spot if he does shove - or if he decides to see a flop and it comes <J high.

Another concern is, does he understand the clickback or does he just see weakness and think 'I got QQ/AK - AVE IT!!!!'

Can flat for deception & position advantage

Don't mind the 4bet click back if u have a plan before u do it.

Not folding this hand the way it's played, and from what u have said about him in the notes. Wouldn't be making a habit of folding kings pre flop in general, but obviously can be done with specific reads on opponent.

Is this full ring? You have 3b his UTG open - looks strong in a vacuum

did u really 5-bet for info? Did you 5-bet to induce the spazz and then fold?

Do you believe his range to now be [AA] only? Is he ever spacking it in with AK?

I've folded KK pre like 3 times I think and been wrong at least once.

From a pure maths standpoint:

I think it's like £266 to win (55 + 13 + 13 + 1 + 1 + 266) £309 = ~50% equity required I believe

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

  35,958,384  games     0.000 secs     7,191,676,800  games/sec

Board:
Dead:  

   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    57.191%     54.62%    02.57%          19640560       924261.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    42.809%     40.24%    02.57%          14469302       924261.00   { QQ+, AKs, AKo }

Being generous with QQ there...



   equity    win    tie          pots won    pots tied   
Hand 0:    47.293%     43.79%    03.51%          11246602       900381.00   { KcKd }
Hand 1:    52.707%     49.20%    03.51%          12637196       900381.00   { KK+, AKs, AKo }


Do you think "pub"player more likely to click/something than pile  because he know pile looks weaker than strong? IDK

Prob flat pre if you plan to fold to jam; no need to strengthen your perceived range with this sizing? Like he is folding never to your click.

It REALLY depends on  your history and how he views your range here imo

Pokerstove it all you want, I cant see how this is a fold?

Yeah, pokerstove is completely irrelevant. This is only a fold if you think your opponent has Aces ~always (perhaps allowing for the other combo of KK)

I'm getting it in. 2 callers for £14 too, changes it, would imagine one has Ax at least what's background on the limpers?

I think this is an awful fold, sorry. You've mentioned earlier that he's stacked off (albeit while short) with A9; the mindset fish usually get in, when they have a big pair, is that they want to get all the money in preflop no matter what happens. They may view you clickback as weak; more likely he's looking at QQ and not thinking about what you've got, or even looking at TT thinking to himself 'I think he's got AK because of [insert magical read here]'.

I believe it was Barry Greenstein who said that you've got to be extra sure when folding KK preflop because you're still going to draw out on your opponent 20% of the time anyway. This is the sort of spot where it can often be a HUGE mistake to fold and rarely a big mistake to call. You need much better reads than what you've provided, or really any reads at all that lend to a fold.

5bet folding is a disaster.

Just flat the 4bet, and play the hand down the streets, you're 300bb deep and IP. 5betting because you think he calls everything worse and jams just AA is very ambitious and there is no way you can know that's what he's up to.

Yeh really don't like this.

Sizing are too small in all the spots.

This deep they won't fold To 3bets so we should make it as big as possible both for immediate value and for setting the pot size bigger so we can get more value post flop.

Comeon just make it like £88 pre and call a jam/

My posting the stove numbers was purely for a starting point obv!

As a live kid, I absolutely hate clickbacks. I very rarely see a situation where folding KK pre is good, but clicking back pre in a live cash game, especially at 1/1, is (IMO) not advisable. You lose value big time for any good hands you have, and can put yourself in very tough spots by allowing the villain a lot of manoeuvrability in the hand. If he's willing to call a clickback, he is willing to call more, and I have absolutely no problem getting it in with KK in this spot. I am, in fact, looking to get it in, and if the guy flats, then I would look to be able to get it in on the flop. SO....

I make it 15, villain then makes it what, like 36. We then make it 112 or so, leaving the villain with a pot sized bet behind, enabling us to get it in there and then should he decide to shove, or get it in on the flop if he decides to flat. If he has AA, then he has AA, and as Wazz says, we still win a little less than 20% of the time. He has enough worse hands in his range aside from the 6 possible combinations of AA that this is a profitable play. Based on this scenario, assuming he flats, I...

Fold board 1, and get it in on the other 3. As played, I...

1) Fold
2) Don't mind getting it in, but don't really like it, this is a very BLEURGH board. This is one of those spots where I base my decision a lot more on live reads and instinct than anything else.
3) IMALLIN
4) IMALLIN

Just my opinion, please don't hate me for it :D

Your 4b should have been bigger, although already mentioned

Get Tom High itt.

The rangees you've given for flating the 4bet and the %'s are totally irrelevant because this are ALL-IN equities. You're playing a deepstacked pot IP even if he has AA its very rare he's going to be able to value bet 3 times against you OOP

I think you got a lil stuck in the tournament mindset, deep stacked cash games are much more subtle, speshly pre-flop

Why can't we 5bet for value? I mean its not really the issue here but just because we fold a strong hand doesn't mean we raised "for info"

again the logic of a raise or bet has to be value or bluff is very very wrong and especially in live cash games its a really flawed mindset to have and one that will lose you a lot of money if you dont rectify.

For example

Huge fish opens cut off and were on the button with KQhh

Now this is just such a slamdunk 3bet as his continuing range will include a bunch of hands that we beat and those that beat us we get to fold out later pretty easily. For example he peels a6s and folds most boards.

But a lot of younger guys (or girls!) assume that they cannot 3bet fold a value hand because they saw it on some bullshit deuces cracked video a few years ago.

AQhh would actually have been a better example.

Calling is terrible as we want to isoolate the fish and keep him to ourselves and emphasize our positional advantage, skill advantage and newly found initiative.

Folding obviously terrible.

So 3betting is by far now the clear spot.

Once we 3bet and he peels 99% of the time, amazeballs.

When he folds "wtf really?"

And when he re rasies us, we dont level ourself and use the arguemtn ahh i cant 3b fold a value hand, we just fold v quickly and tap the table.

This hand is quite similar in itself, people will come along and peel with hands that we dominate, especially to the 3bet, but thats where the frist problm comes the sizing is horrifically small not allowing us to really maximise that edge we have vs them.

In your reply to me (on phone, so don't want to quote) you say you don't want to do A, B and C, be side it's so deep and you want pot control, but are you forgetting you have KK?

What are you doing here against other players at the table?

Your 5b (not a 4b lol) is the only thing you did wrong, IMO. You are making it very cheap for him to get in pot. Also wondering if your 5b would be bigger v other regs?

I wrote an explanation but Pads is 5x better.

Have you ever 3bet AQ and folded to a 4bet? Same thing as 5betting for value and folding to a 6bet. 

Having said that I would not 5bet fold unless I picked up some super ninja read. I also think calling the 4bet is superior, we have the kicking K's and can go 4 ways with a relatively low spr and especially if we are starting to get worried about aces, narrowing his range further doesn't seem brilliant.

But if you fear aces going 4 way is much better than going heads up?  If the flop comes any king, we really are in excellent shape.  Aces don't fold, and always a good chance somebody hits their underset

raising to "find out where you are" was a very common play not even THAT many years ago, and it worked because lets say you have QT on T74 you can raise and NO-ONE would ever 3bet with a worse hand, or as a bluff, so rather than calling down and seeig if you have the best hand at the river, you raise now and fold to a re-raise. Sounds kinda silly nowadays but this was a pretty reasonable strategy.

however, people start getting a bit cleverer and realise that people are raising these hands, and folding to re-raises, so people started raising back with draws, and then as bluffs (or at least very light) so the "raising for info" strategy become redundent. AEJONES who was really a pioneer of NL training video's was one of the guys who promoted the idea of everything is either i) For VALUE - to make worse call, or ii) To BLUFF - to make better fold, or in some instances iii) For Protection - to stop opponents realising their equity, this would usually fit into category i) like 99 on 752 A7 will prolly call but we wouldn't mind making KT and QJ fold. I remember like 4 years ago there was a craze about "not turning hands into 7-2" I always thought this was a pretty dumb theory myself. You open I 3bet AJs you 4bet I fold, I could have just called with my AJs as I was ahead of your opening range but instead i've raised and folded so I might as well have been bluffing, may as well have had 7-2offsuit.

I always thought of it as the best way to exploit unbalanced ranges, for example if a player has a pretty wide 4betting range (with a fair few bluffs) but has a joke magnum 6betting range then THE BEST hand to 5bet fold is prolly AKo - it's not turning our AK into a bluff is raising a range we CRUSH, and folding to a range we are crushed by. The "not turnign a hand into 7-2" theory basically dictates we should never 3bet a hand that is behind to a 4betting range, unless we are bluffing, in which case we might as well pick 7-2offsuit to do it with, a hand with no equity when called and that has no blocker value of significance.

I've no doubt that in 3 or 4 years time some of the plays that are very stnd in high level poker today will be laughed out of the park by the players at the top of the game.

just look back at threads even a year ago and laugh, really fast progression.