blonde poker forum

This was actually a PL08 hand, but in effect, it was a straight PLO hand.

$600 Tourney @ Palazzo, there were three really decent players on the Table, & all 3 were in this hand, as well as me.

I'm Big Blind, 3 limpers pre, I have J-J-x-x (ignore the x-x, not relevant).

Flop is  Qs Qh Js

Small blind (capable of mischief) bets 75% of pot.

What SHOULD we do here?

I raised it up, & ANOTHER kid called, as did the SB. Hmm.....

So at least one of them has a Queen.  Q-J is possible, but not for both of them.

Turn -  Ks

Checked to me this time.

What SHOULD we do now?

I bottled it, as did the other two, & we saw a river, which was a THIRD queen!

As luck had it, everyone checked, & both mucked when I showed.

I really struggled to bet again once I got two callers, & I think my hand is incredibly vulnerable, & is barely beating anything by the River.

How bad am I?

Merely a placeholder until the real pros get here but I'm 100% ok with how you played the hand.  Don't mind treating this as a bluff catcher on turn and river.  The board runs out really naughty for us.  I'm defo not folding the turn if bet to and the river, well, might find a hero call if someone bets or might fold it.  Would be very live feel dependant.

Your line is totally fine imo. In fact I'm sure I play it the same.

I might bet/fold the river small to get hero'd by Qx and straights/flushes but I hate that king on the turn probably as much as you do. 3 way here I'd expect someone to have KQ fairly often.

This is not at all true. I realise it is a high only flop, but it still makes a big difference that it is PLO8. Preflop ranges are going to be radically different in PLO8 rather than PLO... and this is actually really important in this precise hand.

IMO the turn is a clear bet at PLO8. The K on the turn should scare you rather less than if it was PLO, since preflop ranges are constructed differently. I'd be more scared of a 2 on the turn - and obviously an Ace especially. Of course I'd be approaching the hand carefully, but I would still be playing to get value/protection vs hands like A24Q or As3sKT (or whatever).

I'd definitely not bet anywhere close to pot on the turn. You are targetting nut flushes, Qxxx hands, and maybe straights if they are terrible - and you need to bet smallish to get called by these hands. You're bet/folding obviously, barring some ninja in-game read.

Also:

These three sentences do not compute. Given the flop action/board run-out, combined with the fact you won at showdown it is obvious that at least one of these players is definitely not a 'decent player'.

You expect to get hero'd by quads? ;)

If it was a straight PLO hand then I think your line is perfect. I often flat the flop rather than raise, it depends on image and reads, but raise is never 'bad'.

It being PLO8, then go with what honeybadger said.

Many thanks.

As to honeybadger, I really struggled to bet the turn, as I am beating very little by now, was my assumption?

To wazz......flat the flop? Can you explain why, please?

Anyway, Greeky plays it the same.

Shocked......!

Yeah, I think I have been influenced by you posting the results in the hand history (this is bad form you know Tikay ;)). It is clear that at the very least the guy behind you who cold-called the raise must be a very poor player. In-game I would not feel at all confident about betting the turn once a supposedly good player (and this was your read at the time) had cold-called my raise. But if I knew he and the SB were both bad players then I'd be betting for (thin) value plus equity protection on the turn.

Seems that your assumptions about the 'decent' standard of your opponents were a little off.

Just to repeat my point from earlier... you don't want to be betting very big on the turn if you do bet. And you are happily bet/folding.

BTW, I am assuming that this is early in the tourney and everyone has loads of chips because you have not mentioned stack sizes. And how much did you raise on the flop?

Turn is a bet in PLO8 and in PLO (much more clearly in PLO8 for given reasons)

Bet turn with the JJ for defo even in PLO hi, value (K*** might call... a flush might peel one off...) and protection, K*** that isn't a boat and doesn't have an ACE well VERY likely fold which is great for us as plenty of time any random K hand will have 7 or 8 live boat outs. You can't really get bluffed here cos your range has KQ in it.

Only thing is sometimes your river will be a bit tricky, but most of the time a naked K/flush will joyfully show it down, and tbh your hand looks a LOT like QJ so i'd be very surprised if a generic live player thought this was a good spot to bluff and would likely check back a bad K's full OTR.

You won't be able to Value bet the river though, unless you can think of a great reason.

Yes, the King is kinda scary cos when people have Q's they can have Ks with them but don't play weak every time your opponent has a better hand than yours in his range otherwise most of the time you'll be playing very weakly

When we're behind - and villain should be fastplaying the nuts here - we're completely toast, so it benefits us to get less money into the pot as well as close the action should no-one raise behind us. When we're not complete toast we often have to dodge 10 outs twice - we're only 57% against the range of Qx that isn't boated.

You also get to see where everyone else is relatively cheap. You keep their draws in - mostly drawing dead - which likely fold when raised, and keep some draws in your range - and allow people behind you to get involved with their sd + fd.

The table and specifically the SB don't have to be particularly good before flatting becomes vastly superior. When SB leads out into the field in an unraised pot he usually has Qx or better so we shouldn't have any non-boats in our raising range. I might only raise hands like AKQJ but even then you've got nothing to worry about and might get someone barrelling into you on the turn drawing dead.