blonde poker forum

Ok so i dont ever open limp into a pot, just wanted to see what everyones thought is to when it is ok? I mean anything ranging from the level of the buy in, whether live or not, based on someone behind?

Just want to see arguments for the other side, as Tikay says you should never limp.....

On the flip side on the winning poker tourneys book pearljammer used to open limp into a pot with 10s in early position

What range would you advocate a nice fancy limp?

I thought it could get interesting lets gooo..

This might not be the sort of response you're looking for, but the only times I really limp in live poker is when the table will let me get away with it. If I'm playing in a weak 1/1 or 1/2 game, and I'm not going to get consistently punished for limping my weaker hands, then we can enter the pot with a limp. These are hands that flop well multiway and that don't have huge reverse implied odds, such as the suited two or three gappers and the offsuit connectors and the low pairs.

Something that I've been discussing lately is the idea of limping your entire continuing range from the small blind. Part of what raising does other than the obvious build a pot/thin the field, is reduce the spr (stack:pot ratio) and consequently constrict your room to manouvre. In theory it should also cap your range whereas limping won't.

I dunno really, I'm just emptying my brain.

Limping can be 'good' when applied in the right situation.

i.e. I've seen and been one of these players who attacks 'weak' plays like limping too much.  That would then make limping a good strategy vs me if they applied it deliberately.

It's like donking... a lot of people don't do it at all when in fact it has a very useful ability vs the right type of player to be able to get more money into the pot than just check, bet, call....  But with a wide range than a checkraise.


make sense?

Zero yes exactly what i was looking for any instance where you feel a limp is good :)

Yep alot of sense Mr JB, thanks for your input

I lied in OP i do limp... every now again in heads up sit n gos obviously with a balanced range. Usually after a few levels so i can see cheap flops, play post flop. Also for deception as i raise every button so mix in a few to get people shoving their QJ/KQ/A2 :D

so far so good peeps

Something I try to do when playing against good or thinking players is to make sure that when I do something strange or weird, I do it with a hand I can be agressive with the first few times.
i.e. so if I were playing a nlhe cash game vs Sean (zerofive above) then I might do something like limp AA's or donk 33 on J83hh so that I can be agressive when or if they react by attacking the weak play.
Often vs good players they will be able to adjust to this as well or be wary of it, but there are still some really 'standard' reactions that you can exploit if you think about the whole hand and how the rest of it can play out.

The main thing with nlhe is that you need to be playing funamentally strong poker which is generally "tight is right" but if everyone is playing a similar game or in a similar style then you need to be the one looking to play opposite to them.  (so if they're all playing loose, you play tight... and vice versa)


This all comes with the caveat that if you are doing strange things, then you will be put into stranger situations and need to be able to either commit or fold a different range than you would normally.

limping the button in tournaments with good hands that you want to see a flop with and are likely to flop well/dominate their ranges can be effective such as KTss or w/e if you think they are going to be 3b jamming a lot (but are much less likely to just pile in 20bb over a limp). Depends on stack sizes but a limp can be very effective in this way.

start with the spots where raising isn't that great and neither is folding, work a limping strategy in from there, you'll prolly find (as with most limping starts in larger player pool games) that for every spot you think a imp might be good folding or raising was prolly better.

i'd say 19/20 limping strategies are completely butchered

A lot of it depends on the table as others have said.  As I don't really possess cash game tekkers like some and generally focus on MTT's to make a bowl.  I have some ideas about limping in MTT's / SNG's (I'm sure to some degree its relevant for cash too).  I have messed around with limping in the past and for the vast majority of cases I have found that raising the same hands will in generally yield better results.  I still find myself overlimping quite a bit early especially as I will have position on the original limper and can play a small pot in position.  Of course this is villain dependant but my experience are that guys limping in tournaments are doing it with hands that they don't really know what to do with (or AA) and when raised, will either fold pre, put in a huge 3bet OR fold to c.bets unless they catch a piece of the flop (low hassle chipping up FTW).  I have found that raising a limper and c.bet taking it down is effectively printing easy money.

The other reason for this is balance.  I found myself overlimping the same kinds of hands over and over again.  I also know that if I raise into every pot I enter, and keep my sizing constant, I can't be read for any particular hand.  I would imagine that an effective limping strategy would be extremely difficult to balance to utilise properly (owing to there been so many variables), whereas a constant raising strategy would be much easier to manage and would give us far less post flop headaches where the BB will have ATC all the time.  Also by open limping from mid / ep we will almost certainly have to play the pot OOP vs more than one opponent who can have (speaking generally) a much wider range of hands.  My opinion on open limping in general is be lazy and raise!!!

sb v bb in specific circumstances. btn v blinds v weak-average opponents when i have a bad image. Think its pretty interesting, its something people see less and less of, so dont experience much. People get better at dealing with anything through learning and experience. Prediction: 5 years from now people will be saying raising from utg-mp instead of limping is bad.

So as we thought generally limping is bad, but on the odd occasion/correct table it could be useful as long as you have a plan etc

Thanks for everyones thoughts here, always good to have other views

Nothing wrong with limping in soft and friendly live games. It's still not something I do a lot of in No Limit Hold'em, but I often open-limp in EP in games like Omaha High-Low and Superstud.

I am currently experimenting with developing a limping range in the early stages of tournament poker. For example, in the first level, a min/2.5x raise is pretty much never going to deter someone from entering a pot if they so desire. Often, a 3x has the same results. So, pretty much solely with small pairs, I have started to limp to attempt give myself better odds to set mine and try to get as many people as possible to enter the pot with a hand that flops very well multi-ways.

There is also a case in the more aggressive life tournaments for limping the button with a hand that you want to see a flop with, but don't want to get involved in the SB 3 bet BB 4 bet war that could well ensue should you open for a raise. Again, early in a tournament, I have very little time for getting into this sort of battle because I'm attempting to steal 300 chips worth of blinds when i have a 30+k stack. In this sort of situation, a limp is a reasonable option.

Must say, I am not a fan of limping super strong (AA/KK). Too often we will create a large multi way pot, have very little idea where we stand post, and be unwilling to lay down our hand. If someone is going to try and isolate us/three bet us, they will often be doing so anyway, regardless of whether we limp or not. Hence, I would much rather raise so that the isolation raise/three bet is bigger etc. I understand the importance of balancing ranges etc, but mostly if I'm limping in tournament poker, it's either to keep a pot small or because I expect a raise to get called in multiple positions anyway and don't see the point in throwing away the raising chips, which is more often the case in a weaker field. If you're playing a comp where a 2.5x raise gets through reasonably often/actually does thin the field, then by all means, raise. Otherwise, limping is a pretty viable strategy.

I will also point out that overlimping is something that I use a reasonable amount too, again with hands that flop well multi way.

I also will tend to limp my small blind fairly wide if folded to. Personally, it's a pretty strong pet hate of mine when it folds to the small blind and they min raise/2.1x, especially with ante's in play. Cannot explain how terrible I think this is as a strategy. Either limp or make a raise that doesn't give them the odds to peel with basically any two, don't just try and play an unnecessarily bloated pot heads up and out of position.

Overlimping is cool, pretty sure alot of people do this

Hate SB vs BB limping, would never do that and dont understand it. Raise bluffs/value depending on villain but i feel limping SB is pretty terribad, doesn't make sense even if its a hand that flops well etc at least by raising you have 2 ways to win the pot and with only one person behind theres a good chance it will get through unless you are having regular sb vs bb then we can mix up the odd limp i suppose :)

Limping blind on blind is becoming very common with sub 30 bb stacks. At deeper stacks I would limp busboy against people that play with initiative. Same would apply inHU cash. Some opponents become way too aggro as preflop raiser and try and win on any run out.

Quite like limping 9 handed PLO games quite a bit, loads of spots come along with aggro players behind you where people have hands they can 3bet you with, but can't ISO you with, so if you have a nice multi-way hand it's cool to just limp (even open limp) hands with nut suits and big pairs are great examples of this. AJJ2 for example, really sucks to be calling a 3bet OOP with, but a great hand to be going 4 way to the flop with for not loads of money.

Also if I have a good player in the BB i pretty much limp 100% SB vs BB (of the hands i dont want to just fold that is)

A few of the nosebleed guys have been experimenting with open limping their entire continuing range in the SB at both NLHE and PLO, and having a limp/calling, limp/raising and limp/folding range. Sauce123 for example... he also open limps buttons a bit at PLO I think.

I've been messing around with open limping the SB at 6max NLHE recently. It's actually quite fun - because some of the bad multitabling regs just auto-raise every single time. I had a 7 from 7 success rate (i.e. they folded like girls) on my limp-reraises in one session. Made me smile.

It used to be something I never even considered doing, for no other reason than because it 'wasn't standard'. Dogmatic thinking like this is really bad IMO. Try it out and if you find that regs are adjusting terribly to a bit of open limping then keep doing it. A few years ago there was a reg in the 200NL games that played a huge amount of tables and regularly open limped, as well as doing all sorts of other 'non-standard' stuff. I had him marked down as a fish at first, but then it turned out he was winning at ~2bb/100 over a million hands whilst 16 tabling (for those not cognisant of achievable win-rates at 6max NLHE this is a pretty good win rate considering the number of tables he played). It worked well enough for him.

No idea about tournament poker with all the boring marginally interesting stack size dynamic stuff, but I gather many MTT guys are open limping the button quite a bit HU at certain stack depths.

It is definitely good to open limp in 8/9 handed live PLO, PLO8, Superstud etc games and Lil'Dave gives a perfect example of the type of hand you want to do it with. At Padooki I once experimented with a 100% open limp UTG strategy. But I played so few hands UTG that it never really got interesting.

Still haven't seen a good enough reason Imo why to limp sb vs bb

Squid hope ur enjoyin vegas, love ur interviews

gets boring folding 58s all the time

last time I changed my ipoker name I tried limping UTG in 6m PLO.

The reason for the experiment was that it's very hard to make money UTG in PLO, aside from the stnd method of just playing insanely tight, and it's frustrating, spesh with weaker players in the blinds not to be able to play some nice hands.

I was limping MOSTLY to limp call, I was even including bad AA hands in my limp call range, I also had a limp 3bet range which at the start was tight and not too AA heavy (I was limp/calling a wider range of AA than was preferable, so Magnum non AA hands like AKQTds were making up most of the limp 3bet range) reason for this was that on an unknown account name people would prolly give an UTG limp 3bet AA the vast majoirty of the time, so were ISO/folding hands like good KK and iso/calling the rundown hands my range was dominating. As a few showdowns occured though people were adjusting by iso/4betting more KK/AKQ[J/T] hands and being a little more wary of my limp-calls post flop.

I persevered with the strategy for weeks but eventually I just myself putting chips in IP with too weak of a range, and it really takes a super well formed and perfectly implemented strategy to aleviate that disadvantage. You're much better off just Opening to POT with a very strong range, it's not a super sicko strategy but it's pretty easy and with 100bb stacks and half a clue what you're doing it's still not massively profitable but very hard to be fucked about with.

Limping getting kinda "cool" since Sauce started with it, but have to remember how your overall range is affected, ad the visibility of the later streets i.e any position where you have a limping range, but also a raising range is going to affect each range adversely. And as I said earlier lot of limping spots would often have just played better as a fold or a raise.

surely if the ev of limp is > ev of raise or > neutral then we should be doing it ldo

makes total sense to do it bvb vs competent aggressive players.

Can u explain more plz bean or on skype laters, I agree if ev is better to limp but sb vs bb still doesnt seem great surely less likely to vs good aggro as they have position and would be easier vs a weak/passive type

why is it not great? why is it easy to play oop vs an aggressive player, potentially with deep stacks.

why is it great to fold a chunk of our range when given 3-1+ preflop?