blonde poker forum

2/5 cash in vegas. I am new to the table, open CO to $15 with Qs Ts, btn calls, sb makes it $65 playing $800. I cover. He is indian, probably 35ish and looks like he is pretty tight/solid and has a very good hand here. I call, btn folds.

Flop Qd 6d 6h He bets $90. I really want to fold here. I've seen him not cbet JJ on Q94 before, and although this is different situation I just don't know how often this is anything other than KK/AA and I only have two outs to improve. I called anyway.

Turn Ad He checks. Now this is where it gets interesting. I figure he now has AA/KK perhaps AK. My plan was to bet $200 and shove almost any river to get him to fold KK or AK, unless I get some ninja read that he's tarping with AA. I can't just bet turn and give up river in case he's just calling turn with Kd Kx or Kd Ax trying to hit a flush.

Thoughts?

Surely you should play a few hands with the guy before you start trying to get him off a big hand?

Kinda want to agree with young gun here, do we know that he can let some stuff go?  Not sure i have enough information to make a definitive decision.  Usually when I try to do some funk like this in a vacuum it ends badly for me!

I think it is a very adventurous plan. Highly creative. Heroic. Worthy of John Black himself in fact.

I like it :)

 Ks Js 9s

[ ] Surprised to hear that

;)

Chuckles on top form.

Yh like it, small turn sizing tho imo as at least sometimes he will c/r when he has AA, feeling the need to do so to win stacks.

V Interesting point.

Gowan honeybadger give us your thoughts.

I haven't forgotten about your pm btw

I like my stories to make some sense when I am trying something like this and I am not sure this does.  What exactly are we repping?  KJdd, KTdd or JTdd and there has to be a fair chance you fold these hands to a 3bet.  Its a pretty narrow range of hands and if he does have something like AA or KK/AK with K of diamonds then your range is narrowed further.   If I am in his position with a half decent non flush hand then I have to think you have a fair amount of bluffs in your range.  Possibly too many for me to be able to fold.

I think it's WAY more likely that villain will put us on a hand like 98dd than he will think we are turning a Q into a bluff. People find it way easier to relate to plays that they themselves make.

I remember being really confused by something a vgood player did in the ispt vs me and at no point did I consider he had this hand as part of his range because I'd never do it myself.

I don't believe villain would do a lot of turning strongish hands into bluffs, whereas he might do a lot of calling 3bets with speculative hands (who doesn't lol), so I think that's a really important point.

I called preflop because it's 50 more and we can win 800 more plus the 100 already there. I have a very sexy hand, in position vs a strong range (so implied odds if I hit) and I thought I could hand read this player postflop decently well just will basic stereotypes and defaults that I use for live poker. So I could work out if he has AK and misses, or QQ and get him off Axx or Kxx for example.

Also I would only lose 1 bet if beat on Qxx or Txx flops maybe two if I turned equity and everyone knows Im relaxed about reverse implied odds :P

Would fold pre if you think he has it, don't think you have the implied odds. Completely understand why you call though. I think your plan is a winning plan vs the right opponent and I think it is a stake you should turn a profit at but I don't think this is where the majority of our hourly should come from imo. New to the table makes me much less inclined to peel pre and declare war here.

I know you probably didnt mean it like this, but you've basically said "it's a winning play but I wouldn't do it because it's not as profitable as having aces or flopping sets" :D

I like better reads :) #nitlife

Fyp

I do not have a ton of interesting thoughts on the actual hand itself really. I like the idea, and think it is fun, exciting and creative. I also suspect it is not profitable. That's about all I can say. But I do have some thoughts on a wider issue which this hand highlights.

In general, I don't think a game plan based around trying to get unknown players to fold strong hands is one that tends to work out well. However, this is the sort of play that I might occasionally try when I am totally settled onto my table, in the zone, fully aware of my opponent's tendencies etc. But I tend to avoid too many creative ninja-read dependent plays in the early stages of a session since I am unlikely to be 100% zoned-in yet, and also because I have nothing more than tentative inferences about how my opponents play.

When I first join a table my primary aim is to get myself settled, order pudding a drink, make sure I am comfortable, deal with any distractions etc. Then I start to get myself into a calm, concentrative mindset before I proactively engage. I am not looking to make any creative moves or outplay anyone in the first twenty minutes or so. In fact I am actively avoiding this sort of thing. My main goal is to get myself focussed and ready to play.

I believe that when I have just sat down at a table most of my opponents have an advantage over me for the first twenty minutes or so. They are already settled, comfortable and zoned into the game. I am not. I prefer to avoid unnecessary confrontations and marginal spots at this time. On the other hand, I'm always delighted to have a new player sit down when I am already settled and focussed and seek to 'take me on' before he has even got comfortable in his seat. Even if he is a much better cardplayer than me, it is unlikely to work out well for him if he seeks to confront me when I have such a big advantage over him.

In my opinion, understanding and implementing stuff like this is just as important as knowing how to play your cards well. There are so many reciprocal advantages to be gained over your opponents if you think about strategic factors that go beyond the play of a hand.

That really is excellent advice about settling in to a game. I could not agree more. A bit like starting a football match where it's really important to get off to a solid start with no mistakes.

Great post

Excellent stuff

HoneyBadger I couldn't agree more with what you have said, I do exactly the same at cash. I hate being on must moves as I don't usually do much for the first half an hour other than play nitty. If you are new to a table and you are splashing chips around then you are going to be perceived as aggro/loose and therefore less likely to have it.

I think this hand is quite interesting but I guess you almost have to be there to feel if this play would be any good.