blonde poker forum

Bear with me, but I don't have a grasp of when & why we should offer, or accept this, nor am I convinced that some of those who do it understand.

So, why do we do this, for what reason, & in what situations?

It arose, for me, in a Big O (5 card Omaha 8 or better) Cash Game a few days ago.

We were playing $1-$2, but it is a $5 bring-in, & the Button usually straddles for $10, so it plays bigger than $1 $2.

There was $125 in the middle pre-flop, I am playing $1,300 & cover most, & I had.....

  Ad Kc Jd Tc 8h

And we see this flop......

 8s 8d 6s

I pot it, $125.

Shorty, playing $175, shoves. Everyone else folds, just 2 of us, & I call, obv.

Shorty now says - very politely, not an aggro sort - "wanna run it twice"?

What is the correct response, & why?

Confession - I was a little flustered & perplexed by the question, & so I just agreed. Not sure why, either it seemed the cool thing to do, or I was scared to admit I had no idea of the maths or logic. Best not be difficult, & all that. With hindsight, & upon reflection, I thought my decision was bad, & I should have declined.

FWIW, (not relevant to the qustion) I three quartered the kid, taking the "top" cleanly, & chopping the other.

Also, is there any etiquette to declining or accepting, when offered?

Just reduces variance, of course. Not sure why mateyboy would want to run it twice being so short. He is better off having one crack to scoop than very likely losing at least a quarter of the pot.


In the Aria millionaire game, I am led to believe that, if two of them get all of their money in pre and have the same hand (AA v AA or what have you), they just chop it there and then, rather than four-flushing for a million bucks and a lot of animosity.

PS - I understand it is to reduce variance, but how do we measure or define this? Should we want to do it only when we THINK we are in bad shape? Does being offered it suggest we are in good shape, & so should decline?

Technically, if you're in better shape, the less variance the better, as you are more likely to show the right result the more times you play.

If you are 60% to win, you want to run it a billion times, rather than 10.

think if you play with people regularly you're more likely to run it twice and it doesn't matter what shape you're in. It's probably more to do with the size of the pot.

think you could've politely declined simply by saying "no thank you"

Quite unrelated really, but I had another scenario which left myself, & the whole table, gasping for breath. We were heads up, I can't recall the betting, but both of us had plenty in front of us.

It was Big O again, the flop & turn were down, & no low was possible, & the board had not paired. There were three spades on show, & I had the K flush. The other kid almost implores me to chop there & then, so much so that I stupidly agreed. I agreed (don't ask, I don't know), & we chopped it. He then showed me his hand - Nut spades. He then left the table hurriedly, supposedly as his girlfriend was getting a bit revved up & wanted his attention.

Daftest thing ever. Both of us.   

You should never run it twice in the Big O games over there. It is time charge rather than rake, and you get about 10 hands per hour as it is due to incompetent dealers not knowing how to split the pots. Run it twice and it just slows things down even more. Last year there were some pots that took about 10 minutes for the dealer to sort out because they were run twice and each pot was split several ways. I stopped playing in those games after two days because they were so slow and they were charging by the half hour.

Other than that, from a mathematical perspective it makes no difference at all whether you run it twice or not - your edge (or lack thereof) does not change. In other words, it makes no difference whether you are a favourite or an underdog in the pot - the maths is still the same no matter how often you run it. But it does reduce variance, and perhaps makes you 'one of the boys'.

With the exception of time charged high-low games, I personally never refuse to run it twice if I am asked to. Whatever my opponents want to do they can do as far as I am concerned. But I never ask to do it myself.

I have friends who adopt a policy of refusing to ever run it twice. Their idea is that it makes opponents more fearful of them since they know they are not going to be allowed to run it twice if they call that big all-in bet. So maybe they fold marginal hands a little more often, which allows my friends to be more successful with their bluffs. There is something to be said for this I guess, but personally I don't want to do anything to encourage opponents to fold their bag of spanners when I have taken a big position in a pot.

If you tilt less than your opponents when you lose a big pot then you gain a reciprocal edge by refusing to run it twice. One of you is going to do your money if it is only run one time, and this is a good thing for the person with the best emotional control. If you win the pot then great - your opponent is likely going to start steaming. If you lose the pot then also great - now you have the opportunity to gain a reciprocal edge through not tilting.

Thanks Stu.

My - so far - policy is like yours, it seems - I accept if asked, but have never once offered it. Much the same as my "deals" policy on Final Tables really.

Fair to say, when it is run twice, there are all-ins & split pots, it can take forever, then everyone tries to "help" the Dealer by butting in.....The time charge is $6 per 30 minutes, so yes, it adds up.

Tilt? Lol, not gonna happen. Tilt never ceases to amaze me, it seems a fairly immature trait in a poker player, poker is, by its very nature, a game where we get brutal outdraws. If you cant get used to them without throwing a kiddy strop, best not play the game imo.

I must confess to getting angry with a chap who tried to literally STEAL my chips in an odd situation last week, so I resolved, with a tad of controlled anger, to bust his arse. And I did. Most pleasing. Suppose that was a bit tilty, but it was controlled, which, I hope, is different.

Thanks Geo. I'll be brave next time.

Run it twice, you miserable turd? You can fuc* right off. Now. You hear me boy?

I only ever tilted a guy bu not running it twice once in all the times. A simple "No sorry I only want to do this one once" usually people are just like fine nps deal.

Was playing at star city a while back, had about 110 in front of me, got it in pre with JJ. Mad Chinese guy calls and asks if I want to run it 3 times. He covers by about 600. I say no. Board runs out 9 high and he has AA.

Is it normal to want to do this with aces in this situation?

What would you have done if he asked you for an equity chop? :P

In high stakes poker pretty much everyone runs all ins twice. There is one guy I know of who doesn't...

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_cF87ic9FY Fast forward to 3:30 or so. I think Phil Laak's reaction is because Ivey never runs it twice and it's seen as sick by even the sickos to not reduce variance in those huge pots.

I guess Mercier will think twice the next time he considers making a move against Ivey. So running it twice or once is an interesting one because the fact that all those guys bar Ivey will run it twice makes it a little easier to think about semi-bluffing or bluffing them. So I guess running it once or twice has an impact on how the game plays and how people play against you.

I run it twice when I'm playing on Full tilt. I only ever untick it when I know I have someone dead to avoid paying extra rake, which is naturally very very rarely, particularly when you play like me ldo. I just don't like it when sometimes people run it twice and sometimes they don't so think it's better to stay consistent with it.

Just a nit that wants to secure some(most) of the money.

Remember that hand. U could see how wounded mercier was.

On my phone but another famous run it twice hand is where greenstein and durr get it in on qxxss. Durr has kqss and greenstein aces.

Sorry? Are we doing YouTube clips of people running it multiple times?

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IarPUmb-TWE

Even though I know it's coming, I'm still struggling for breath laughing.

Lol how could we forget that one? So good

YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct4S-5NlxAQ

Just for completeness

Never seen that before. That is just ridiculous. What on earth was Robl doing?

This is hillarious, can only happen to PH though!

Stupid question but does running it multiple times only ever happen in games with community cards?  Is it possible/does it ever happen in stud/draw games?

Do u think you'd have a breaking point tho? Like if
A game gets sick deep and u both get a ton of money in?

this is just nonsense.

Love this hand.

I would normally run it twice or more to lower my variance, generally if I was a regular I think it would be correct to almost always want to do one thing, but allow your opponent good grace to decide ultimately. Every professional should run it twice when possible, no one really wants unnecessary variance.

Melissa I think Mr. Greekstein called it nonsense because you have the same equity no matter how many times the hand is run. Obviously if you run the river 25 times then you are more likely to get some part of the pot but this doesn't change your equity. And, if you have 10% equity you do not deserve to lose the full pot, behind or not :)

Anything that lowers variance whilst maintaining ev is awesome.

I've never done anything like this but when I've seen it on TV I often wonder why the community cards dealt the 'first time' aren't put back in to the deck, reshuffled and then dealt again for the 2nd deal?

Extreme example but if I get AK in pre v QQ for 300xbb and we agree to 'run it twice' I want 48% equity (or whatever it is) twice....

Not for it to come AAAKK the first time and be drawing to 1 out or a miracle flush/straight the 2nd time.

Am I being stupid?

It makes no difference, just takes longer to reshuffle the first board.

What am I missing?

48% equity the first time and then potentially as little as, what, 7/8% equity the 2nd time? That's a big difference?

I think running it multiple times is a friendly thing to do, and is dependent on size of pot for me.  We have a game that by the end of the evening is £1/£2 blind but with 3k/4k stacks.  The game plays very aggressively, so you get pretty marginal situations for large pots, and we often run it 3 times just to stop someone doing their pods completely.  I prefer running it 3 times to 2 times because at least you get a pot "winner" as opposed to chopping.

Had the chance to interview Dr. Greenstein a couple of years ago and asked him about this hand and the policy of running it once/multiple times in High Stakes cash games. He said the reason he only ran it once against Durrr and why he only runs it once in general is that Barry believes he's one of the best in the world when playing stuck, but thinks Durrrr and many of the other players play worse when stuck. So it's in his interest to give them the best possible chance of getting stuck!

If it's a recreational player in the hand, I would always go with what they wanted to do.
Other times my personal preference is to deal it out as normal, but wouldn't go out of my way to be awkward, if someone really wants to run it multiple times.

Im usually happy to run it twice if its a ridic pot for the game in cooler situations. If we're just getting a buy in each in on a flip, let it be.

As somebody mentioned earlier in the thread, there are some circumstances where being known as somebody who runs it twice allows people to become mega aggro vs you with all their draws. i remember when Alex first started becoming a reg in the 1/2 games at DTD and we ran a few things twice, more as a favor to him at the time (before he had the lot!).

I soon realised I was taking a lot of pressure off him in the games and put a stop to it, mainly to make him squirm :D

What you're missing is that it works the other way too. If you lose the first run out then your equity for the second run out will likely have increased. It balances out either way, and there is no change to your overall EV.

Ofc if we could reduce variance at no cost we should. But running it twice does have a cost on a time-charge game. We're here to gamble, aren't we? Seems ridiculous to be running it twice unless the pot is huuuuuge. You're also costing everyone else at the table time as well, which is selfish.

I expect to handle the swings better than my opponents as well, so it's in my favour to run it once only. Having said that, some people will tilt more if they run it twice and lose both, so that reason is a little reduced.

People also want to keep their hands secret before they decide as well. Seems ridiculous. It doesn't affect the equity either way and it just wastes time when one guy is drawing dead. These games take enough time already with people preferring to talk to waitresses for a minute while action is on them or dealers not making sure people know when it's their turn to act.

AFALKHADGLHGD was severely annoyed at the almighty disgusting nits @ $5/5 Big O the other day who ran it twice for an $800 pot.

It's fun tho