blonde poker forum

This is my first forum post.  Been meaning to get involved for a while, having been playing at DTD more and more recently, and loving the tournaments and coverage by Blonde Poker.

I thought I'd put a hand out there and see what you think.  Apologies if its a bit of a long post, I'm sure they'll hopefully get shorter as I get into the posts more often! The hand in question is folding KK pre.  I’m still about 50/50 in my mind whether it was the right fold, for different reasons which I will come to.

Firstly, I qualified to the UKIPT/Estrellas main event when it went to Marbella earlier this year on Poker Stars (1100 Euros).

To give the background, it was the biggest event I’d qualified to, and as such I knew (wrongly) that I probably wasn’t going to be as active as I would be in a smaller club game as, to be honest, I was concerned about being outplayed by the regulars who play this type of buy in.

Due to being told I didn’t need ID when I registered in the casino the night before, I turned up on the day to be told I did, so had to go back to the hotel and get my passport, meaning I didn’t take my seat until about 40 minutes into the game.

When I did sit down, the table seemed reasonably active, I decided to sit and wait for a while and get a feel for it.

About 20 minutes in, I picked up KK in the BB, (Blinds 50/100) Starting stack 20,000.  Obviously delighted and trying to work out how I was going to play it, the betting started.  UTG+2 made it a min to 200, 3 callers, round to me.  I made it 700 looking for some action, and the initial raiser insta made it 3800!  I was a bit surprised and it folded back to me.  It was an Asian woman who I didn’t have any info on really.  She hadn’t been particularly active, so I went into the tank.  I kept saying to myself, ‘you cant fold KK pre ever!!’, but then convinced myself she had aces, and that I believed she would turn them over when I folded for some reason!  After a couple of minutes I thought I’d let it go and she mucked.

There are a number of things here, and a number of lines I think I could’ve taken, I wonder which one you think is best?

1)  I should’ve made the initial 3 bet bigger.  I think my 700 looks like a bit of a weak squeeze, and if she read it as that, she’s just bullying and I should’ve shoved over the top of her when she 4 bet.  If this was the case, a 5 bet gets rid of her, or if she calls, I can get it in on the flop.  The problem with this is, with no info on her, how do I know?  What do you think the average player has with no info in this spot.  It just seems such an odd raise.

2. My raise of 700 stands.  If I am not going to fold KK here, what is the correct play?  Is it;

a) Shove over the top and hope for a call from QQ, AK ,maybe occasionally JJ or AQ if she’s crazy!

b) Min raise, which more or less tells her I am willing to get my stack in, and if she shoves I can make the decision then.

c) Flat the raise. I don’t like this myself as what am I hoping for on the flop? Is it just always going to go in if the board brings 3 unders?  Am I always going to fold when an ace hits?  I suppose if I flat, I can see what she does when I check the flop, (if I check it, should I bet out?).  Can I bet out and fold to a raise on the flop if there are 3 unders?

The bottom line is this, (and I am sure it is probably wrong in the long term).

I went to Spain in the biggest tournament I played in and I didn’t want to bust so early.  I think for a 4% of my stack investment into the pot, I can fold, get rid and find a better spot, especially when we’re 200 BB deep.  I’d be interested to hear what you think.  By the way, I suppose one regret is that although I did make it about 7 hours into the tournament, the spots didn’t come, and I ended up whittling my stack away and thought I may as well have got it in with the Kings after all!  But having said that, I gained some good experience of a bigger buy in event, so I think it was worth it after all, even though in a smaller event, the money would’ve gone in every day of the week, and twice on Sunday!!

Cheers,

Will

Having played in this tournament you would be horrifically wrong to fold vs 99.6% of the field. Vs a random asian lady it is hard to say. I would call in your spot. I would be comfortable backing my judgement. I think you should have perhaps just 5b gone with it. People were crazy in this field especially.

Hi Will welcome to blonde, and thanks for playing the Online cash games

I know what you are saying about wanting to play for longer, not get knocked out early but next time, or after a bit more experience, you are at least 5 betting, and probably shoving?

If she has Aces..gg, gl and hit that King

^ This.

5bet/get it in.

If she has aa speak to Pleno he always has kk into aa ;)

i dont feel comfortable getting it in vs a woman who raised utg for 200bbs.

Flat the 4b almost 100% for me.

Doesn't sound like you have enough info to know she's going to spazz 200bb with AQo. Also would be a massive shame to prevent her from seeing a Q73r flop. General population read would suggest a heavily biased value range, but with a post flop spr of 2:1 we can't really fold, yet.

I don't feel comfortable being in a thread with the above situation.

It's a funny spot, which you get a lot in this kind of event early on.

Utg min raise then pretty huge over raise is just bizarre. I wonder what her raise would be had you made it 1350 or more?

Min raise now just for a laugh. Look her in the eye and fold when she shoves.

i was going to say something but everybody will call me results orientated heh

I'm flatting this 4bet nearly 100% of the time (readless) and see what happens post.

I just fold pre ainec!

After she 4bs ofc

The re-raise size should reassure you she's less likely to have Aces? Pretty random to raise nearly 6 times your raise (i.e. as if she wants a fold)...

I reckon she's showing up with AK/Queens/Jacks mostly here, so a raise/call off seems best to me ; if she does have Aces she's massacred the hand and so justice will naturally be served with a King on the flop

3-bet is just way way way way to small. Clearly should be more like 1400-1600 if not more, this comp will have been really soft I imagine (it's in Marbella), so you'll just get peeled a bunch normally. As played I probably just peel and expect to be calling down on most runouts. Probably not loving getting it in vs a lady who's opened UTG after you've 3bet so small. If you were to get it in then 5-bet calling is certainly going to be a lot better than jamming.

     Welcome to Blonde. This is a first time for all of us. I very rarely feel equipped or confident enough to post on this part of the site but hey,here goes for what it's worth. You are  probably already aware of this but part of the issue here was caused way before you sat down. Never go to a casino abroad without your passport no matter what you have been told the night before. Your biggest live comp and you miss a whole heap of information gathering time and suddenly find yourself in a great spot but no information on how the table has been playing,the previous actions of the villain etc etc etc. This has put you at a huge disadvantage. One of the issues I always have with PHA is that no one hand takes part in isolation but is one hand in a sequence of hands involving history,moods,position and the emotional states of the players concerned. A cold analysis of a 'spot' in isolation of context is always slightly flawed in my humble opinion. Your late arrival put you in a huge information disadvantage in this situation.
      Taking all of that into account I would have  raised to 8,000 and then been prepared to re.evaluate if she shoved. It puts you in a horrible spot but KK is just to good to fold to the first bit of pressure. However I stick to the view that the hand was lost when you left your passport behind. That's not a criticism by the way,just the fact that you missed out on getting information which would have helped your decision making.
      If you call her all in and she has AA you can go to the bar and bore everyone with your bad luck coupled with the ' I knew she had aces,don't know why I called speech' or even better at the first break say how lucky you were to get it all in behind  but hit a two outer on the river. Simon Deadman and Mitch Johnson have copies of that speech if you want to ask them.
       
       

I couldn't agree more with that statement.  In fact, if the 4 bet was made by a Spanish player, or anyone who looked remotely Spanish (!!), Id've felt a hell of a lot more comfortable playing the hand more aggressively/not so badly and weakly!  I've played in Casino Marbella quite a few times, and I think against the average Spanish opponent there, a 5 bet shove would've been snapped by about 66+/A9+!!  Maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but not far off! 

For me it was the lack of information, the fact I'd gone to Spain to play and didn't want to bust so early, and be subject to a suck out even when I get it in 70%+ ahead.  My game plan prior to the tournament was to hopefully play smallish pots (pretty nitty I admit), preferably in position, grind it out slowly, picking my spots when I think I'm good.  I suppose this hand coming up so early, and the fact I was just trying to get used to the table was unfortunate, and I should have had the balls to get it in! 

I also had a hand in my head, which I'd randomly been talking to a friend of mine about the night before the tournament, where a friend of mine in the first hand in a £500 buy in picked up AA, n it all went in pre against KK, (he won the pot), and maybe (definitely) that clouded my decision wrongly!

I know the fold is awful in long term poker terms, I agree that getting it in with KK pre is almost always +EV, and I don't think I'll do it again no matter how far I've travelled to play!

Thanks TightEnd, online cash games are really good, hope they go from strength to strength, I'll keep playing them, (especially with the great promotions ur putting on the moment!)

I agree with ur last comment completely. I think it was the fact it was so early that made m play it so badly!

Thanks for your comment Ian.  I agree with the your comment that I lost the hand when I left my passport behind, lack of info etc.  The fact I folded this hand pre was mainly due to the fact it was so early, and for me, a big tournament I'd built myself up for for weeks.  I think what I was really asking here was 'is it acceptable to fold KK here being so early, and being so deep, bearing in mind there should be so many more spots later on'.  I'm sure the answer is 'no' and agree with what other people have said, ie. mainly, 'get it in, and if she's got AA, 'that's poker'.

One point though, by making it 8000 and re-evaluating, what am I really re-evaluating?  Am I just over min-raising to fold a shove, or just over min-raising to take down/for value expecting a shove (against a random player)?  I'd say I'm doing it to call a shove, and as bad as it may be, I didn't want to put myself in that situation so early! So weak, I know! 

I'll have to compare notes with Simon and Mitch, plenty of times I've been that guy at the bar telling my bad beat stories, much worse than KK vs AA pre though I'm sure!!

Hi there, I read the first post up until you said you folded (I didn't read your analysis or anyone elses).

I think I do the same as you except I make it quite a lot bigger. Being 20k deep it's going to make it very easy for people to peel. You're OOP and multi-way most of the time and I'd rather get it HU. I'm thinking more like 1250 or something.

It's quite annoying that she has made it so big now, she might not have aces but because of her sizing flatting is difficult, you are kind of committing yourself as the pot is 7k+ and you have 16k left. It won't take much action for the chips to go in.

If you jam, she is almost definitely going to fold everything but AA and KK unless she is terrible and she might not fold AKs if she is also quite bad. As it happens, an old Asian lady doesn't usually put a 4bet in with anything other than AA or KK in this spot. I'd be very surprised if she does it with Queens tbh so just fold.

It's not like "what are the chances of running kings into aces" here. You are either a pro player who has a huge edge on this field and this looks like a dreadful spot, or you are a recreational player that this is an arguably marginal spot and you are going to have your bit of entertainment in Marbella short lived. Your call.

Hi welcome
I think folding here is fine, its not the case of you having kk here, its the fact she is telling you she has AA.
Your 700 bet is fine, if you make it 1200 your giving your hand away aswell -as the lady has.
No need for getting 200bb in this early

I think 3bet way bigger, and call if she 4bets. If she has worse then she'll give you the rest of the money down the streets anyway on plenty of runouts and I think that if we get it in pre we're not doing very well overall.