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Title: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: TL900 on October 07, 2013, 04:28:00 PM Ok so this hand came up near the end of day 1 and i wasnt too sure about the river.
We have been at the table about 1 hour and won nearly every pot weve played but not gone to showdown very much i will have a v lag image. 400/800/100 Guy opens from the HJ off 20k to 1700 no reads. Button asks how much he has and calls (playing about 70k seemingly splashy and has already triplr barrell bluffed about 45mins before this hand) We look down at Aspades Qs in the sb and decide to 3bet to 4900 (too small?) think its tough to go any bigger and the opener still think he has FE? We cover all, this is only my 2nd 3bet on the table. Opener folds, button peels after a little dwell. Pot: 13kish Qc 9c 4d I decide im gona x/c 3 on most runouts vs described villain as he seems like hes had enough of me and wants to regain tablecaptaincy. He bets 6k i call, Pot: 25k Kh Goes check check Td We check? He bets 14500 we call. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: rfgqqabc on October 07, 2013, 04:45:20 PM He reps small pairs all the way. I wouldn't go bigger (more than 10%+ anyway) pre. If we call here what are we ever folding? We have the weakest hand we decide to c/c all the way right? Heroes gonna hero tho
Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: pleno1 on October 07, 2013, 05:20:27 PM I think this is very well played pre flop, and whilst I do like having a c/call range vs aggresive opponents I think Id still go for a bet otf. We could either just go for 3 or... I feel like if he is aggresive and has any kind of equity on the flop he wont fold, that will include back door flush draws. I think too often the board runs out very dirty and we end up incorrectly calling (as this hand happened imo) or we fold the best hand, or get tilted because we think we folded the best hand. My plan generally here would be to cbet to a size that would leave more than a pot sized bet ott so we check and represent AK (in opponents mind we will have AK or JJ here like 99% of the time) and then c/shove the turn. He will sometimes b/f some gutshots or something, if he has a hand like 98s i think he bets almost always and will probably station if we tank jam, and if he has Qx we always get all the cheese. With his weak Qx and 9x i think hes more likely to check a street or bet v small on most run outs. On some run outs he may check both turn and river, and with 9x he may always check turn and river. If he doesnt bet 9x its not that much of a problem. If he checks turn and bets river I would check shove on almost all rivers and expect him to hero call pretty wide, usually he will have 9x. Ive misread stack size a little bit, and I think i prefer the above with around 50k stacks, although if we make it 5k pre and put in 6k on the flop, if he bets 18k or something similar its not really an overbet at all and can represent a lot more that we think we have some perceived fold equity. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: pleno1 on October 07, 2013, 05:23:29 PM as played to the river i think its a trivial fold....
board just ran out so bad and whilst he can have a bunch of underpairs (perhaps unlikely and would want to sd vs AK otf?) I just feel like our stack is worth protecting and he has an absolute chunk of super value and marginal value combos. We also have a decent amount of jx in our range and even 2 pairs so that we dont have to call here. As the Wizard that is Adam Picken said, this is basically the bottom of our range so if we are heroing here, were basically heroing our entire range. Im as big a hero as anybody but even I think this is a tad too much. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: rfgqqabc on October 07, 2013, 05:27:04 PM as played to the river i think its a trivial fold.... He asks how much the guy has tho so he prob has 88 or 22 or something silly. I don't see what Jacks this guy has. Maybe we should raise river. board just ran out so bad and whilst he can have a bunch of underpairs (perhaps unlikely and would want to sd vs AK otf?) I just feel like our stack is worth protecting and he has an absolute chunk of super value and marginal value combos. We also have a decent amount of jx in our range and even 2 pairs so that we dont have to call here. As the Wizard that is Adam Picken said, this is basically the bottom of our range so if we are heroing here, were basically heroing our entire range. Im as big a hero as anybody but even I think this is a tad too much. C/c range is nice but people don't triple very often live. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: Pinchop73 on October 08, 2013, 12:06:55 AM We rarely beat Qx hands otr that peel peel pre.
Turn check feels like he has showdown value given history. I understand you wanting to call three post, but it's a pretty brutal runout. But yeah, guess he seems capable enough to turn lower pairs into bluffs on this board as well as some club draws. May value bet TcXc otr? With the read we have I don't mind a sigh call I guess. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: AlexMartin on October 08, 2013, 12:12:03 AM how many chips you got?
Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: Pinchop73 on October 08, 2013, 12:13:16 AM Covers
Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: AlexMartin on October 08, 2013, 12:17:33 AM squeezing bit bigger. quite like the line but think more value in betting tbh, with ur image too good a spot to see go check check and then get zero value on further streets.
Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: pleno1 on October 08, 2013, 05:05:45 AM as played to the river i think its a trivial fold.... He asks how much the guy has tho so he prob has 88 or 22 or something silly. I don't see what Jacks this guy has. Maybe we should raise river. board just ran out so bad and whilst he can have a bunch of underpairs (perhaps unlikely and would want to sd vs AK otf?) I just feel like our stack is worth protecting and he has an absolute chunk of super value and marginal value combos. We also have a decent amount of jx in our range and even 2 pairs so that we dont have to call here. As the Wizard that is Adam Picken said, this is basically the bottom of our range so if we are heroing here, were basically heroing our entire range. Im as big a hero as anybody but even I think this is a tad too much. C/c range is nice but people don't triple very often live. People think its cool to ask, they usually just snap peel their pairs. I wouldnt read too much into that or at least not make a full decision on it. If you think he has just small pairs why would you consider raising?! Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: NoCardDSC on October 08, 2013, 07:57:28 AM I think this is very well played pre flop, and whilst I do like having a c/call range vs aggresive opponents I think Id still go for a bet otf. We could either just go for 3 or... I feel like if he is aggresive and has any kind of equity on the flop he wont fold, that will include back door flush draws. I think too often the board runs out very dirty and we end up incorrectly calling (as this hand happened imo) or we fold the best hand, or get tilted because we think we folded the best hand. My plan generally here would be to cbet to a size that would leave more than a pot sized bet ott so we check and represent AK (in opponents mind we will have AK or JJ here like 99% of the time) and then c/shove the turn. He will sometimes b/f some gutshots or something, if he has a hand like 98s i think he bets almost always and will probably station if we tank jam, and if he has Qx we always get all the cheese. With his weak Qx and 9x i think hes more likely to check a street or bet v small on most run outs. On some run outs he may check both turn and river, and with 9x he may always check turn and river. If he doesnt bet 9x its not that much of a problem. If he checks turn and bets river I would check shove on almost all rivers and expect him to hero call pretty wide, usually he will have 9x. Ive misread stack size a little bit, and I think i prefer the above with around 50k stacks, although if we make it 5k pre and put in 6k on the flop, if he bets 18k or something similar its not really an overbet at all and can represent a lot more that we think we have some perceived fold equity. I think this is near enough spot on tbh. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: rfgqqabc on October 08, 2013, 03:48:15 PM as played to the river i think its a trivial fold.... He asks how much the guy has tho so he prob has 88 or 22 or something silly. I don't see what Jacks this guy has. Maybe we should raise river. board just ran out so bad and whilst he can have a bunch of underpairs (perhaps unlikely and would want to sd vs AK otf?) I just feel like our stack is worth protecting and he has an absolute chunk of super value and marginal value combos. We also have a decent amount of jx in our range and even 2 pairs so that we dont have to call here. As the Wizard that is Adam Picken said, this is basically the bottom of our range so if we are heroing here, were basically heroing our entire range. Im as big a hero as anybody but even I think this is a tad too much. C/c range is nice but people don't triple very often live. People think its cool to ask, they usually just snap peel their pairs. I wouldnt read too much into that or at least not make a full decision on it. If you think he has just small pairs why would you consider raising?! What if he has something silly that should definitely check back but has bet and is beating us. I'm not going to make a full decision on what he said but it feels somewhat likely. It could be a fairly big hand esp with the tank flat of the 3b. Fishhooks maybe Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: david3103 on October 08, 2013, 04:53:28 PM as played to the river i think its a trivial fold.... He asks how much the guy has tho so he prob has 88 or 22 or something silly. I don't see what Jacks this guy has. Maybe we should raise river. board just ran out so bad and whilst he can have a bunch of underpairs (perhaps unlikely and would want to sd vs AK otf?) I just feel like our stack is worth protecting and he has an absolute chunk of super value and marginal value combos. We also have a decent amount of jx in our range and even 2 pairs so that we dont have to call here. As the Wizard that is Adam Picken said, this is basically the bottom of our range so if we are heroing here, were basically heroing our entire range. Im as big a hero as anybody but even I think this is a tad too much. C/c range is nice but people don't triple very often live. People think its cool to ask, they usually just snap peel their pairs. I wouldnt read too much into that or at least not make a full decision on it. If you think he has just small pairs why would you consider raising?! What if he has something silly that should definitely check back but has bet and is beating us. I'm not going to make a full decision on what he said but it feels somewhat likely. It could be a fairly big hand esp with the tank flat of the 3b. Fishhooks maybe JJ makes a lot of sense given the way the hand plays out. He bets the flop when you check "putting you on AK" maybe. Checks back the turn and hits gin on the river. I don't like calling here. I also don't like checking the flop when we have TPTK even though it invites trouble if we face a raise. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: Nit Tendencies on October 09, 2013, 03:08:23 PM I like the spot flop check fwiw. i think People do definitely bet these boards which hit their ranges, and your gameflow reasoning behind the action is logical. Wp.
I would definitely go a tad bigger pre, i think you're losing value. Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: Nit Tendencies on October 09, 2013, 03:11:34 PM Why can't he have Jx btw? Don't get hung up on your pre flop read of small pairs, you have to be able to process new information since we get so much more of it from the way our villain interacts with 5 cards than he did with the 2 preflop.
Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: TL900 on October 09, 2013, 04:08:57 PM He can have Jx but limited combos imo. He def 3b's JJ and gets it in vs OR, would think he bets all combos of KJ ott (maybe wrongly so?) so the only Jx he can have is AJ/QJ/J8s (sometimes i guess, maybe a bit speculative but would inc it with read)
We block 8 combos of these hands aswell. Not sure if he vbets hands like QT otr, i would guess not but if he does then think my call is def bad Title: Re: UKIPT London bad runout Post by: Nit Tendencies on October 09, 2013, 04:56:16 PM I think that when you've checked three times you are expecting him to check back the river a somewhat large % of the time, thus you would probably lead your Jx hands, so he can bet two pairs on the river expecting you to have AA/AK and maybe flick in a curious call. I can't see why he wouldn't bet two pair when you've checked thrice, but then again live players do get fixated on their ultimate hand strength.
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