blonde poker forum

Blinds at 400-800 my stack 21000

UTG is Mohammed min raises to 1600 he has about 40000

called in 3rd position by Paul Zimbler who has just won a couple of big pots, is hitting and buzzing. He is table chip leader

everyone folds to me I have  Kh Ks in the big blind (suits may be wrong but not important for hand)

I reraise to 4800 which I think is a mistake. The raise should have been bigger. I am out of position and taking this pot now is not a bad result. Mo could have not much or he could have Aces. When he just flat calls I can eliminate AA as he would reraise for sure now with another player in the pot.

Paul thinks for a good minute or so then folds.

Flop comes  8c Aspades 4d

Godammit!! just once can I please have a flop without an ace when I am holding KK

Anyway, I reason there is every chance Mo doesnt have an ace here and I cant bear the thought of checking and letting Mo bet me off the hand, so I bet 5000 with the intention of surrendering to any resistance.

Mo folds and I take down the 12000 pot, leaving me on nearly 30k instead of 11.

The point about this hand is that Paul Zimbler folds  4c 4h

In my opinion this was a mistake. I spoke with him about the hand later and he said he knew I had big pair. Even so, with 11600 already in the pot and only 3200 more to call, he has position and plenty of chips and 2opponents with reasonable chips left in front of them. The situation, current pot odds and large implied odds demand a call in my opinion.

As it happens, with 2 players behind me, I almost certainly dont make the 5k bet on the flop as it is just too likely that one of them has an ace.

I would be interested to hear opinions

cheers

well if i were paul i would have mucked also. he had you on a big hand and is looking to hit the 2 outter. I agree the pot is large enough to make the call, but i don't like the fact that i really need to see the 4 on the flop to stay in the hand. the flop could just have well come out K 4 8 and now i would be in all sorts of trouble.

I just ask myself am i ahead, he decided he was not and got away from it...1600 is not to hard to get away from.

JMHO

I passed 22 first hand of the tournament to a raise out of the small blind

I would have hit quads

I think passing 44 is a standard pass here for Paul

looking to hit a set, being offered 4-1, when that set is a 7-1 shot, yes?

percentage wise this is the right play for low pocket pairs

Implied odds. After he calls the first raise in a fairly ep he has to call re-raise for 3200 here when he knows he is closing the action. Particularly if he was chipped up.

Given that he had already called 1600, passing for the extra 3200 is definitely a bad play here.

I just don't see it that way. thats like calling with Jacks when you know the other guy had Aces. if you know you are behind and looking to hit a 2 outter you have to pass, and to make matter worse you have to hit the 2 outter on the flop.

 And like i posted before, what if the flop had come 4 K 8 ? now what? you lose all your chips because you couldnt pass a hand pre flop when you knew you were behind...

Well you wont win many tournaments playing with that mindset imo.

If you call and you flop set over set then you are out. No big deal, there is a festival "Main Event" on every week these days. Just play the next one.

Thats what makes the game so great. there is no right answer...Just different people playing different ways..

Peace..

Yep il just take my 15-2 that I flop a set and win a huge pot as long as the 84-1 shot that we both flop sets doesnt materalise.

i think the laydown preflop with 4 4 is correct, if he has u on a big pair, hes not really gonna know where he stands with a flop of something like 4 q k, if he has u on a big pair u could easily of just made trips on the flop. the correct preflop fold imo, calling a raise preflop when u know ur a huge underdog is just bad poker no matter wot odds ur getting

I would have called with position and on a rush, so i think i have a resonable chance to win the pot even if i miss. If i do hit then i stand to win another huge pot.

spot on.

It's an auto call.

He's got good implied odds vs what he reads as a big pair, a hand thats easy to get away from if he doesnt get what hes looking for and position.

Definitely a call for me.

Saying calling a raise when you are a huge dog is bad poker is simplistic. In deeper stacked events good players will often call raises with more meagre holdings, knowing that a perfect fit to stack an opponent or their ability to play people off flops compensate for the initial weakness of their starting hand.

Read about some of Daniel Negreanu's plays. He didn't become cardplayer's player of the year in 2004 by only playing AA or KK to a raise.

 

On a side note does anyone else think that negreanu's blog is the naffest read in pokerdom.

 :goodpost:

the beauty about mistakes is that you can (if you try) learn from them. But if you believe you are right then you're probably not going to.

mysterys (if hes real) form of poker is probably profitable. And thats great. But it doesn't win tournaments, and certainly wont win big event bracelets. I'd rather win 1 tournament and lose 19, than to finish in the bottom level of the money 20 times.

Here we go again....... :dontask:



 

mysterys way of playing wont win tournaments!.............lol. go and ask thelodger how many tourneys ive won on ladbrokes! $178,000 in tournaments last year (in 9 months)

it seems that if i disagree with anyone then im wrong and cant possibly achieve anything,  but its ok for everyone to say that im wrong and my way of playing is wrong.

everyone can disagree with me , but i cant disagree with anyone else

my tourney winnings woulda been half of wot they were if i never had the discapline to lay down monster hands, just because i think every hand through to the river b4 the flop is even out doesnt mean my way of playing wont win tourneys, mikkyt u couldnt be further from the truth (how much did u make in your first year of playing)

If you are getting 100-1 you fold pre flop?

Thanks alot for all the input guys. I might agree with the point that a flop like 4KQ could spell trouble for Paul if he puts me on a big pair. Thing is, my lousy 21k was less than 1/4 of his stack at the time so I cant really hurt him, even in the unlikely event st against set flops. Given that he can lay the hand down easily to any action if he misses on the flop aswell, I still think its a call. I think with hindsight Paul feels the same as he said to me several times in the latter stages "all for 3200", looking at my stack.
Just as an aside, I can't believe I haven't posted on here before. Some really excellently argued points on here - I think I will learn alot.

if ur saying u know the guy has a high pair, and coz ur getting 4/1 to hit 7/1 shot at making a set, which ull need coz u know the guy has an overpair, am i right in thinking ud call every flush and straight draw when ur getting 2/1?

I have only 2 words to say: implied odds

great that you are enjoying the boards not gus

care to give us some "overplaying mediocre hands around the cut off position" hand analyses?  :D

Your implied odds are less with flush and straight draws - they're easier to see than a set, especially flushes and the call would be made in a later betting round and so your opponent will have more information about your hand.

Did Harrington not say you would be an idiot to fold ?

Now you are being silly.


You have this entirely the wrong way round.

The problem is that you make a statement, someone posts a dissenting view and you launch into  tirades  about Ladbrokes leader board positions, tournament winnings, issue heads up challenges, etc, etc. but you never give any reasons for your views. You simply state, in effect, that you are the canine's cojones and everyone who disagrees with you is obviously inferior to your good self.

Given your robust approach to dissenting views, it is a bit much to start whingeing.

The issue here is:
Given your tournament record you must have a reasoned point of view worth listening to. So, take a deep breath and make your case.

care to give us some "overplaying mediocre hands around the cut off position" hand analyses?  :D
[/quote]

Very funny. I don't do that anymore, although I do love the button. ;)

Very funny. I don't do that anymore, although I do love the button. ;)
[/quote]

and making the gutshot  Jc on the river as well not gus

Ah yes, well that was a little different. I was taking advantage of the situation (10 to go) and my stack (massive) and making alot of raises to steal blinds. I had made it 22k to go with  Jd 9c with the blinds at 3000/6000 and was reraised allin for another 14k by the short stack with  Qc Aspades. Obviously I cant pass now for 14k more so we get to see 5 cards.

The flop came  Ahrt 8d 3c turn  7d river  Th.

The second and last time I got lucky all tourney

You've put in nearly a quarter of your stack - where are his implied odds? 

They are in the 15k I still have in front of me and the 35k mo still has in front of him. Thats another 50k possible, plus the 11600 already in pot and 3200 more to call for him whih closes the action. The more I think about this hand the more sure I am it must be a call.

In my first year of playing? Well, that would have to be 2005 since thats the first year I've played with any length of conviction. I never played online except for very early in the year, loosing a £100 deposit on crypto. After that I never went back. I was playing purely live poker in the casinos and managed a 50% ROI with a profit of around £2000.

So far for 2006, I'm in profit of $11,000. And we are just three weeks in.

But why are you turning this into a cock waving session? Nobody is saying your way is the wrong way. But in my opinion it won't win you AS MANY tournaments as you could be winning. The beauty of a debate is that we can both be right. Time to take a wee chill pill I think hehe.

So now he must hit a set and get multiway post-flop action to justify his call. Look at what happened in the hand - you bet the middle player folded and you would be unlikely to put all your stack in fearing the ace.  With these stack sizes this is a call of a raise but not a reraise.

finally someone with some sense on how to play the game, doubleup your points are spot on!

with this particular flop of course you are right. But there are alot of flops with a 4 on them which do get all my money in. Q49, TJ4, whatever. So long as it comes no ace and a 4 he stands to win 28000 for 3200 which is almost 9-1. For a flop with a 4 and no A that is probably about right. Factor in the chance of getting some of Mo's chips aswell and surely that gives sufficient incentive, especially when you are on a rush anyway?

No Ace, No King and no what the other players got - I'm not saying that calling is a big mistake, but folding 44 in this situation certainly isn't.  I'd much rather use the chips to call some raises instead of one reraise.

Yeah, I hear ya. You make a pretty good case. I still call here myself, given the relatively low risk involved, but i am seeing the fold as less of a mistake than I did.

Very bad fold. He's put 1600 in and won't put another 3200 in when he closes the action. He can't get into trouble as no offense not gus u have given away your hand so get in flop the 4 and get you or Mo to overplay. Early on I want 2s-8s not the big pairs. They are the easiest NLH hands to play imo.

So, you've raised to 10,000 UTG with AK.  Everyone folds to the big blind who pushes all in for 10,050 total, at the same time accidentally giving you a peek at his AA in his excitement.

You fold your AK for the extra 50 chips right?

Look at the hand - he flops a set and doesn't get paid.

change the ace to a queen and he gets ALL of not gus' chips. You judge a play over a course of many hands not this one isolated hand.

If the blinds are 10 20 theres still plenty of time to limp AK UTG at least once. easy pass.

He passes AK UTG jamie, don't you read the forum?

I suppose you think the odds of hitting a set are about 3-1

I think he was considering the implied odds.

JP is one of the best players on the forum, i think he is aware of the odds!

Well he should have no difficulty working out the odds of hitting a set without an ace and a king then looking at how much the OP had left in front of him plus the pot.  When he does that he will realise that it was a marginal call/fold situation.

Not sure why people even try to educate others on here. Dont bother JP.

If this is a marginal fold situation then im a Buddhist Monk.

It called a hand analysis board. ;)
I shouldnt say anything as im a Trappist Monk.

Any chance you can get me some of those 10% strength Trappist Beers? :D

What exactly is the point of your post?  You sound like a slapper trying to defuse a fight by telling her boyfriend "He's not worth it"

Gold discovered whilst searching for mystery721 gem's

mikkyt not been banned? be interesting if he starts posting again

why would he be banned? he didnt break any forum rules.

k let him come back and ban everyone else then

my understanding is that as long as he didnt bump old threads, call someone a **** and start banging on about celtic and rangers ian huntly could sign up if he wanted to

 ;popcorn;

I definitely want coaching from Paul Zimbler now pls!