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Sad sad day, one of the greatest ever to live, really really loved this man.

RIP.

Amen to that.

RIP.

Many of the younger members will only have known him for his later political career and presidency.  However, during my childhood and teens he was simply a man in an old photograph, unseen from the world for many years, while the pressure to release him from prison intensified.

I remember watching the live coverage of his release from prison, which felt historic at the time, but his rise to the Presidency following that was quite remarkable, and truly a turning point in history as Apartheid slowly fell apart.

A quite remarkable life lived, despite a huge proportion of it being spent in a jail cell.

Very sad day. :(

Changed so many peoples lives and with such great humility. RIP the great man.

This for me is just one of those photos. I was just 4 years old when this happened and obviously to young for the times before but have been to South Africa and robben island, and would definitely put on the list of must visit places in the world

(http://i1295.photobucket.com/albums/b633/callumm18/16BFD07B-AF74-492B-B3C0-1CF14EE3D107_zpsehekpbrs.jpg) (http://s1295.photobucket.com/user/callumm18/media/16BFD07B-AF74-492B-B3C0-1CF14EE3D107_zpsehekpbrs.jpg.html)

A wonderful human being.

I well remember him being released from jail after serving about twenty years for very little reason other than being a black intellectual who was the nemesis of apartheid, and his subsequently displaying no apparent bitterness or resentment towards his persecutors. He simply rose above it.

RIP

"One of the brightest lights of our world has gone out".

Thought this quote summed it up

The Telegraph has a seven part obituary: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nelson-mandela/10115323/Nelson-Mandela-obituary.html

To give you a flavour:

Son of a chief of the Thembu clan of the Xhosa people, young Rolihlahla Mandela attends a local Methodist mission school. Here a British teacher, finding his name difficult to pronounce, christens him 'Nelson' after the admiral

A mate of mine was saying last night the word legend is overused these days but in the case of Nelson Mandela it is the only word that does him justice. He will long be remembered as an example to many.

http://rt.com/news/mandela-sharp-quotes-media-860/
http://thebackbencher.co.uk/3-things-you-didnt-want-to-know-about-nelson-mandela/

No sources from the source ldo. Am I missing anything? Just a bit young for it all at a guess. He obviously did a lot of good things as well.

I saw someone quote this on facebook the other day too.  I don't know enough to know if it is true or not but given it is widely considered to have been a just cause I don't see how it lessens his acheivements.  One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter etc?

No you are correct that is a good article

I did a lot of reading on Mandela at college lots of material was either very pro or very negative

My conclusion overall was he did a lot of good but a fair bit of bad which should not be ignored completely

To be honest I don't really see how it is a good article.  There are three points.  The first - that he effectively supported violence in support of his cause I dealt with above.  The second and third, that he bought a lot of military hardware and was friendly with dictators could have been levelled at pretty much any world leader ever.  He would not have been a very effective leader if he hadn't done both.  I think the biggest legitimate criticism that can be levelled against his regime is that it was undoubtedly tainted by significant corruption.

Why does the media get to choose who is the terrorist and who is the freedom fighter? Who got to choose whether his cause was just? I'm sure  most terrorists see their actions as fighting for a just cause, and obviously this is easier to acknowledge but plenty of governments have taken action that could result in attacks that could be argued as someone "just cause".  Mandela has a whiter than white reputation, and I'm really struggling to see why. If I renounce my actions afterwards that makes everything ok? The only way to judge these terrorist/freedom fighter situations is to say any violence is wrong, unless it perhaps prevents further violence, but this does lead us onto another slippery slope. This is making my head hurt. Everyone talks about his lack of bitterness post release from prison, but how can he be bitter if he was fairly incarcerated?  

edit: For someone praised as such a peaceful man, praising dictators doesn't seem too great.

There has to be a point at which you stand up and say enough is enough and I am willing to fight for what I believe in.  Sometimes these things can be done without violence but, throughout history, often change has been acheived through violence too.  That doesn't neccesarily mean that it is the preferred method of the perpetrator and it often takes courage.  Often, and in this case, it is a bigger crime to do nothing.

I agree with most of your post mate.

I'm glad someone else has this view and put it much better than I could have done.

Should Gerry Adams have a Nobel peace prize then?

I don't think it is really the truth.  Nelson Mandela helped found Spear of The Nation, which was the armed wing of the ANC.  The original aim was sabotage, and I don't think there were any deaths before he was imprisoned the year after.  Given he was imprisoned for sabotage then I think I am right here.  Blaming him for the subsequent change in strategy is obviously a big step that the article doesn't really explain.  That big step doesn't seem consistent with some of the statements attributed to Mandela.

He would be jailed in the UK for his offences, so I don't think there can be any complaint there.  There were arguments that some of the others shouldn't have been jailed and the jail sentences were very long.  I am not going to pretend he never ever did anything wrong because that would be ridiculous.  He did have some very good reasons for what he did.

Given the white on black killings at peaceful rallies previous to the formation of Spear of The Nation then responding with a campaign of sabotage doesn't really put him up there with Gerry Adams and Bin Laden.

His opposition to retribution given all the provocation from the years of apartheid; the many years of imprisonment; the deaths at peaceful marches; the deaths of some of his friends etc.  He had the power to reek his revenge, he chose not to use it, it is what makes him a bit of a hero to people like me. 

That's what he was like after being incarcerated for so long - it wasn't relevant before that. And their aim was sabotage but he was on record as saying that casualties would have been acceptable - which is the standard language of war anyway.

He was a great symbol and great figure head - but he was at his most inspirational largely when he wasn't actually doing anything other than being in a prison; even his greatest actions after becoming president were to 'not' do things he could have. It's sad when anyone dies but I don't think I can recall a greater disparity between someone's actions and the subsequent deification after their death.

I'm just asking about the other side. One mans anti-apartheid revolutionary, another mans terrorist I guess. It does seem like he didn't directly take violent action but possibly contributed towards the policy change. You seem to imply I don't think he was a good man simply for asking questions. I plainly admit in the first post I don't know everything (anything).

I do not see anything wrong in waging war against political ruling party that are killing people, oppressing the majority of the country based on their colour. Everyone in the world (apart from right wing racists)  apartheid was morally and politically horrendous. The problem was they could not jail him for killing people or terrorism, I am sure it was some treason charge that China and other corrupt governments are keen to use to shut up opposition.

Pretty much as soon as he entered jail he knew the battle had to be won with respect and non violence, he was already influencing inmates and the world with how he spoke, thought and how to proceed against apartheid. Don't think you can compare him to anyone else, freedom fighter, terrorist or politician. If you watch the History channel documentary on him leaving prison he was a supreme master at achieving peace on both sides and how it was to be achieved. Along with De Klerk they were pivotal in disarming the country's 6 nuclear weapons, putting the world as ease of any regime change and keeping the ANC happy under extreme pressure of right wing and black violence. He was a tough tough negotiator/politician when he first came out, he would not be steamrolled over by De Klerk and this gained him the respect he needed from his own people that negotiation was worth it and they could see a light at the end of the tunnel, 

If someone says he did nothing in prison they require an education lesson me thinks. I agree 100% its all i bit much the press it attracted but its a measure on his achievements of uniting a country on the verge of civil war into what it is today.  

Depends what side of the fence you are on.

Unless his pals have impaled one on it

absolutely, which is the point Rfg made about who decides who is a terrorist and who is a freedom fighter.

So if Jews used violence against the Nazis in Germany they would be terrorists too?

It's a simple matter of right and wrong.

Apartheid was wrong, and any means were justifiable to smash it down.

I mean, I get the sentiment, but it's not quite that simple. The ANC weren't necessarily only targeting the 'nazis' to use the analogy. A tad less discriminating than that

I doubt the resistance purely targeted (or impacted) just the Nazis.

True true

Invading Iraq? The protection argument seems pretty weak when we fail to find the weapons. Although they definitely had them at some point as they were used against Iran years before. These issues are virtually never black or white, I suppose Apartheid is one of the clearest cases in favor of violent action.

If the people of North Korea rose up against their government's regime, would they be terrorists?

I wholeheartedly agree there are many grey areas in subjects such as these.

I just don't think this is one of them.

I intended to imply I thought the article was malicious, not that you were.  I baulk a bit where I read the glowing articles too, as there is a definite question mark about his role in the armed struggle. 

I agree with a lot of things Camel said, and although you could rightly label some of his actions as "terrorism", I think it is much easier to see him as a freedom fighter than most.

A lot of the issues around apartheid are probably burned into my brain because a lot of this was happening whilst I was developing an interest in politics and current affairs, and these were the events I first felt strongly enough to protest about.  If you were very young or not born then, then you aren't going to remember the events aren't going to be nearly as vivid for you.  If it all happened 10 years earlier, I'd probably be a bit less grouchy.  I fully understand how people born after apartheid had started to crumble wouldn't feel so strongly about these issues.

I think he has spent so much of the last few years as a force for good, that you should be able to forgive him for some of the things he may have done earlier. 

As an aside to this, I don't think you did just ask questions.

You linked to the article and then stated "he obviously did a lot of good things as well", which doesn't feel like you are putting the right weight on the good and bad things he did. You also said you struggled to understand why he had the reputation he had, and that "The only way to judge these terrorist/freedom fighter situations is to say any violence is wrong". 

Anyway time is probably better spent discussing PLO8.   

I should have used more questions marks as I've come across slightly the wrong way, I was trying to play devil's advocate more than anything.

"The only way to judge these terrorist/freedom fighter situations is to say any violence is wrong". 

This was more because I felt I could find lots of examples where violence is seen as terrorism but rarely would that combatants be classified as freedom fighters afterwards.

I'm always happy to talk PLO8 :)

Very much agree with Keith here...

Think that the violence was against the oppressive regime, not towards a singular section of SA Society (Non Indigenous)

Based on the on Nelson Mandelas' actions before he was imprisoned some may refer to him as a 'terrorist' (there is no definitive test for this label..) But based on his actions while in prison and leaving prison, he'll be remembered as being an anti apartheid hero..

Glad RGHLKNDFLKNREF (WTF does that even mean) put this out there.. 

i was at luton g when a player announced ,haveing got a flash text...nelson mandela is dead...2 or 3 people uttered ooos and ahh,then a dick head said words to the effect of ..bloody terrorist ,good job...a couple of people sniggered as if in agreement with the opinion .....but then i think they would agree with any opinion in order to not have to have there own.....the rest of the players carried on with the game in hand ,i speaking onley for my self found my mind wandering towards jfk,martin luther king ,and ghandi..........
how about some one commisioning that street artist banksie to do a last supper poker scene with nelson mandella,jfk,martin luther king,ghandi,that burmese bird that is allways under house arreast...name sounds like sang hoo check or something,the one that hilliary clinton tries to dress like when she was in america,mother terrese of calcutta,princess diana, and a few luton regs plus dick head as juddas

I remember being on a tour of Robben Island. We were on the bus doing a tour of the island with a guide being done by an ex political prisoner. A (white) South African man got quite irritate about half way around with everyone singing Mandelas praises. His quote was something along the lines of this...

"I don't think its fair that this terrorist that spent 23 years in prison is now a multi millionaire and me, I have worked all my life and i don't have a bean".

The bus went silent in utter shock, nobody really knew what to say. When we next stopped on the bus on the tour and all got off. The man didn't get back on the bus. I think take me back to that situation and i would have punched the guy in the face, and said something along the lines of.

"I don't think its fair that ive just punched you in the face, but i have so get over it."

I for one know if i was in Mandelas shoes i could not have come out of prison and been so level headed after the way the white south africans had treated him. I would have had a similar reaction to the man on the bus, wanting to fight fire with fire and thats why i respect him so much.