blonde poker forum

Uproar in Teesside as Latif bets 80% of his stack as the river card is dealt to complete a KQK7K board and is flat called by the young lad in Seat 10.

It is suggested, by Latif, that the pot should be awarded to him and that this is a Grosvenor rule?

Could someone clarify please?

It's considered soft play but it's usually punishable by a warning followed by round penalty or something.

Pretty difficult to enforce though, if someone is completely new to the game they might not realise what they are doing.

Not like Latif to cause uproar.

You can't win the pot when the other person has tabled the nuts.

TD discretion about a penalty. Generally, the embarrassment is enough of a penalty. If not, a one round penalty is hugely embarrassing. I'd estimate 95% of the time, it's an innocent mistake

Have seen someone do it at DTD in a comp, when the board ran out TJQxK and it was obvious they both had an Ace. The river was bet, raised, re-raised and then the other player just callled and said we're chopping.  They did, and then he had a round penalty.

Surely you've also played in comps where the two people are obviously chopping and then one turns over 89 and your jaw hits the floor?

I saw the same guy call with the nuts on the river twice in one orbit at DTD. The dealer gave him a friendly nudge the first time, and then an incredulous look the second time. That was as far as it went tho, which surprised me, but the player apologised profusely to be fair.

Common sense, as is the case with most ruling threads, should just prevail here.

Stupid rule that should be abolished.

There can be valid strategic reasons for flatting (or not betting when checked to) the nuts, even when last to act on the river. The existence of these strategic factors makes this rule completely ridiculous.

Also, lol at Latif. That guy is such a douche. As always with these types he is sort of likeable too, but he is still a scumbag.

I'm aware that penalties for soft play/collusion may apply, but the case made tonight was that the pot should be taken away and that this is a Grosvenor rule?

I wondered if anyone had seen it in operation or was better than me at finding said rules somewhere


Agreed - although there are moments when he seems almost human

He's sat next to me, good job he can't read what I'm writing :)

Never heard the rule before. How you can have the best hand, not fold and not win is absurd.

Strategic reasons, HB?

For example on the bubble of a sit and go.  If you have a massive chip lead and there are big ICM factors it would be in your interests to keep the short stacks alive so you can use the situation to chip up and abuse the bigger stacks.

Yup, it's quite fun doing this and really infuriating for everyone else :D.

Right. There are other ways.

Just give a massive speech about how the other guy must have the stone cold nuts, then sigh really loudly, check your cards again, lean back, undo your bow tie (optional), shake your head, sigh again and declare "I'm all in!"

99 times out of 100 the person screaming for a penalty in flare ups like this is the one doing the angle shooting.

For example, I have never seen anyone do a string bet to gain an edge.

Yet every time an experienced player calls out a newbie for a string raise they are doing it to save chips.

Spot on.

Latif is one of the craziest guys I've ever met. We've had our issues but he still calls me grandson, and is one of the few poker players I've met that always asks about my family and things like that.

One of my favourite stories about Latif happened a while back. He'd borrowed some cash off a regular player, but a regular who only comes in maybe once every 2 weeks on a friday night. Latif took the guys address and said he'd drop the cash round. 9am the next day, Latif rings the bell and is met by the guys missus. I can't even imagine her face as he yahoo'd his way into the front room.

Actually, random people not involved in the hand jump 14 feet out of their seat, eyes lit up and scream at 145 decibels "THAT'S A STRING BET". I had this at DTD when I last played a few months ago, I reached for chips, counted them out in my hand then when I went to bet, the top couple of chips slid off and went over the line which then was followed around a quarter of a second later by the rest of the chips. Such a joke, the dealer got pressured into declaring it a string bet because 2 other players were eye-balling her.

Latif is just an old-school gambler, nice to talk to, personable and quite amusing, but defo more than happy to use any angle possible at any time, in his eyes that's part of the game, the only issue I have is when he does it people who are new to the game and "easy targets" as it were.

Certainly a character, kinda like the guy, unless I have a headache or a hangover.

He once sent away a 40something Asian guy who was clearly new to the game away from the table. He is definitely oldschool, and I've seen him do shady things but still good at heart.

He uses the same gym as I do (I know, I know) and we have lovely chats some Saturday mornings when we both take our respective grandkids for a swim. But I still prefer it when he's not at my table.

This sums up these situations perfectly.

Warning will suffice in this situation. If it was to happen again, Id give him a round penalty

The annoying thing about it is it may put off new players from playing. We need to do what we can to get more players playing the game and part of this is helping them as they learn the game. Someone (experienced player at the table/TD/dealer - Doesn't really matter who) needs to have a word with them after the hand then they know for the future, not try and angle them!

I guess I didnt really explain the "warning" here. If ever a warning is given, the situation should be explained to the player, new or old.

When I first played at DTD, I checked down quad 9s (in my eyes, there was a dry side pot and you're not supposed to bet into those. So confusing!). The TD was called, laughed at me a bit, but then told me exactly what I'd done and why I couldn't do it and what would happen if I did it again. I took this in jest and appreciated the help. I try to do this for all players.

Imo more relevant strategic reason is seeing your opponents hand when he would have folded to your raise is worth more to you than the value you get when called. Sometimes it's just gonna be so obvious you have it if you jam.

Ok I will ask. I know this rule is in but why ?  Surely if I don't raise the nutz the only person it hurts is me, and surely would only ever be  a mistake, so again costs me.  To the get a penalty doesn't seem to compute, can some one explain the reason to me ?

Steve

It's to prevent people soft playing friends, or at least I think it is.  If theres 8 left and huge pay jumps players have been know to collude to help each other ladder up.  There was a case in Finland where two brothers finished 3rd and 1st in a tournament and it turned out they were colluding and soft playing each other and generally chip dumping to keep the other one alive.

Ok, my mate who shall remain useless nameless did this because he is the doinkiest donk every to visit donkey town.  He argued like a donk and had to sit out a round, any person with half a brain knew for the first to the last hand he was clueless, so him checking the nutz should get an ahhhhhhhhhhh  bless not a sit out for a bit.  I did struggle to explain to him why this is a rule, as I didn't know the answer, just know it to be the case.

 

According to the youngish lad who was acting as TD at this point the bolded piece here was correct although I couldn't, and still can't find any confirmation on this. He, the TD, is pretty good generally. So, does Grosvenor have a different rule for this to everyone else?

that seems like a terrible rule to me, and one that i would feel pretty awkward enforcing

Personally, I have never felt that "flat calling" with the 'nuts' is deserving of a penalty.

If it is someone really experienced, I am more likely to question their motives but it would generally still result in a warning and that such behaviour is something I would monitor going forwards.

You either do it because:

You're trying to cheat/chip dump,
You wish for information on your opponent and by placing in a bet that could see your opposition fold his hand, you lose that opportunity. Or;
You genuinely didn't realise your hand.

99.9% of the time, in my experience, it is the 3rd option and occasionally the 2nd.

You cannot calculate or pre-plan being in a situation where you have the absolute best hand and then go on to use it advantageously to benefit a friend/conspirator etc thus it would seem to me that we should therefore consider that the situation arises through error or a desire to gain information. You could also argue that is situationally beneficial to someone in order to exploit certain situations such as the bubble.

Irrespective, I am rambling:

We do not have a rule that indicates you forfeit the pot. I have no idea how that came to be believed, but usually if something sounds absurd - it probably is!

Isn't there an overiding rule of poker that you disregard the other rules and do what is fair on occasions like this?

You wish for information on your opponent and by placing in a bet that could see your opposition fold his hand, you lose that opportunity. Or;


Now that has some logic to it, hmmmmmmm   my self I suppose I want the chance of getting more chips but can see why balla players might want the above.

Steve

Thanks for the clarification. I was astonished that it was even suggested, but the noise was great.

If you're properly soft playing each other and one of you bets the river, and the other one goes all in the if the soft playing arrangement is pre made then surely they would know they aren't being bluffed, and that if they had the second nuts they'd jut call so they should fold...they lose same chips as if they'd just called anyways ?!?!