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Title: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: TightEnd on January 20, 2014, 11:53:08 AM In case you haven't seen
"The $560 buy-in event was suspended before play was scheduled to resume on Friday with just 27 players left from the starting field of 4,814. By early Saturday, organizers had decided to cancel the event entirely and freeze all unpaid prize money until they finished their investigation. There’s been no statement on whether players who’d already busted out of the event might have their buy-ins refunded. " full details at http://calvinayre.com/2014/01/18/poker/wpt-borgata-winter-open-bogus-chip-scandal/ and http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/WPT-Borgata-event-cancelled-after-cheating-scandal_80577/ I was asked these questions for an article, and I found them difficult to answer What would your answers be? 1) Do you think all the players who played this event but didnt cash should be compensated in some way? 2) How do you think the remaining 27 players prizes should be handled? Play on? Equity chop? Even payouts? 3) What measures should be in place to have prevented this happening in the first place? How do you think the event was able to go so deep before this was detected? 4) Is it unrealistic to get exclusive chips made for high profile events that would only be used once? I presume this is not cost effective? Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: BorntoBubble on January 20, 2014, 12:23:02 PM To me it should be a case of see what the investigation throws up and then decide. If its one player throughout the tournament with bogus chips, and he is still left in then his prize money should obviously be withheld and then the other 26 paid out on equity chop or something similar. Online i would say his money suspended and then redistruibted to all players involved in the competetion equally but if say his chop is worth 100k and yuou have to distrbute $20 to 5000 players this is a logistical nightmare so in the live areana i am not sure how i would go about this possible offer a discount for that player of future buy ins?
If it was more than one person or a group of people and many are left in the event then same sort of process should hold up their money is suspended remaining players that are not involved get a chop of the money. It is going to be very hard to say who is involved or not because whos to say the bogus chips where not brought in by a "mule" and then smuggled to another player across the table. It is as much players responsibility to keep an eye on stacks as it is dealers/TD's and its a suprise that if the chips were different they were not spotted Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Mohican on January 20, 2014, 12:38:46 PM (http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd131/druid636/CC94E7F3-C49B-4BA3-80CE-FB4D26F7FD72.png) (http://s225.photobucket.com/user/druid636/media/CC94E7F3-C49B-4BA3-80CE-FB4D26F7FD72.png.html)
How 1 milli's worth of these chips got into play before they were detected is quite staggering to me. They are not even close to the original. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: maccer2613 on January 20, 2014, 02:01:36 PM I guess one of the problems they have now is the players with the fake chips may not be the ones who introduced them as they will of been passed around between players? Although if that's the case you'd of thought it would of been detected earlier than it was ??
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: AndrewT on January 20, 2014, 02:28:04 PM Yeah - the whole thing's a mess. Unless they find video footage of those introducing the chips there's no way to punish the offenders without punishing the innocent.
As far as I can see, the only thing to do is payout on chip counts now and just accept that some scumbag has made some $$$ and some innocent people who got knocked out have been screwed over. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Mohican on January 20, 2014, 02:33:11 PM Yeah - the whole thing's a mess. Unless they find video footage of those introducing the chips there's no way to punish the offenders without punishing the innocent. If you're gonna accept the chip stacks as is, playing on is the thing to do??As far as I can see, the only thing to do is payout on chip counts now and just accept that some scumbag has made some $$$ and some innocent people who got knocked out have been screwed over. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: AndrewT on January 20, 2014, 03:15:10 PM If someone has cheated to get more chips, it's likely they'll accumulate more chips as play goes on (as a bigger stack make it easier to go deep where the big money is).
By paying out now, it means a cheater doesn't scoop the top prize. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: bergeroo on January 20, 2014, 03:20:36 PM Yeah - the whole thing's a mess. Unless they find video footage of those introducing the chips there's no way to punish the offenders without punishing the innocent. If you're gonna accept the chip stacks as is, playing on is the thing to do??As far as I can see, the only thing to do is payout on chip counts now and just accept that some scumbag has made some $$$ and some innocent people who got knocked out have been screwed over. Some of these people might no longer be in Atlantic City, the logistics of organising the remaining 27 people could be tricky, probably need to just payout a chip chop when you have identified as best you can any of the 27 aren't involved. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: theprawnidentity on January 20, 2014, 05:04:22 PM Usually I think things like a this are pretty clear cut, but :dontask:
I have a few ideas, but none of them feel right. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: theprawnidentity on January 20, 2014, 05:26:41 PM Usually I think things like a this are pretty clear cut, but :dontask: I have a few ideas, but none of them feel right. Yeah its like I blurbed all that out...but I think every solution leaves alot of people unhappy. Huge moral dilemma on organisers parts and if anyone has to take a hit it should be them. It is really horrible for all concerned. I'm not sure that there's much the organisers can do. If was 1/27 at this point after several days of play I'd be really pissed off. Probably a lifetime opportunity for some and they get a buy in back and travel expenses. As for the organiser, can they ask the dealers to go through every stack and check the chips are genuine? That kind of seems unfair too. If they can retrospectively look though footage and find out who brought the chips to the table, then maybe let the tournament run to the end and witholding all payouts till the footage was reviewed? Of course people will argue that they may have unfairly got stacked by cheating players so that makes it difficult on that front. I'm sort of swaying towards playing the tournament out but can't really get my head round why. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: scotty77 on January 20, 2014, 05:56:42 PM First hand accounts of this tournie on 2p2 is pretty shocking.
Dealers taken from the pit, no idea about poker, racks lying around. Someone posted a good point that we pay for 'insurance' against this kind of thing in the rake, to ensure that the tournie is played fair and to a good standard of floor/dealers. I think the best way to go about it would be to chip chop and also refund every single entrant their rake fee minimum. Maybe even the entire BI as there will have been dozens of people who got knocked out in this tournie by people who had their stacks boosted by these fake chips. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: maccer2613 on January 20, 2014, 05:57:44 PM Not sure on the expense involved ( though I'm sure WPT could afford it) but they need chips with electronic chip in them which identifies them.....also helps with chip counts etc?
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: bobAlike on January 20, 2014, 08:20:45 PM I would wait and see what the investigation throws up, BUT the whole integrity of the tournament (staff, organisers and players) is undermined. It has no doubt had an effect on how the final 27 were determined and their stack sizes. Without couterfeit chips in play who knows how different the final 27 would be? Controversial but I would declare the whole tourney null and void; return all buy ins. I'd also look to compensate all players in some way, as no doubt they have all made considerable travel & subsistence outlays. At the end of the day I think the casino has to take the hit on a compensatory package, as it was their responsibility for the security and integrity of the tournament and players. Naturally once they find out who/how this happened they then take action towards those individual(s). Final 27 - as above, just buy ins back with compo package. Prevention Measures? Each dealer to check chips at table and floor managers to check too and check dealers. But I'd guess that for this level of cheating there'd have to be some inside help. Could also make it a player responsibility, with a rule that any player caught with counterfeit chips is at risk - that way players inspect stacks/scooped pots themselves (and highlight issues immediately). Perhaps chip counts at the end of each day all added up to check against known chips in play? Surely a custom set could be made for 'Borgata Open' - and then locked away until the following years event? This is surely the best way to deal with this. Highly unfair to the honest remaining players but without these chips in the outcome would have been different and the players who got eliminated may not have done. The organisers take the hit, arguably deserved for lack of control. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Junior Senior on January 20, 2014, 09:54:14 PM i say play it out as is. Replace the counterfeit chips with real ones for completeness then refund all players that entered their buy in and reg fee. That way everyone is compensated in some way and the rest of the players still in get to carry on and play it out. There might be no cheats at all in the final 27.
After the event they need to look hard at this and ensure measures are taken to stop it happening again. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: MC on January 20, 2014, 10:36:05 PM i say play it out as is. Replace the counterfeit chips with real ones for completeness then refund all players that entered their buy in and reg fee. That way everyone is compensated in some way and the rest of the players still in get to carry on and play it out. There might be no cheats at all in the final 27. After the event they need to look hard at this and ensure measures are taken to stop it happening again. How exactly could you both play out the event and refund everyone's buy-in and reg fee ??? Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Junior Senior on January 20, 2014, 11:13:46 PM i say play it out as is. Replace the counterfeit chips with real ones for completeness then refund all players that entered their buy in and reg fee. That way everyone is compensated in some way and the rest of the players still in get to carry on and play it out. There might be no cheats at all in the final 27. After the event they need to look hard at this and ensure measures are taken to stop it happening again. How exactly could you both play out the event and refund everyone's buy-in and reg fee ??? the WPT puts their hand in their pocket and covers it. they took their eye off the ball and allowed this to happen? maybe i am being harsh Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: dwayne110 on January 21, 2014, 07:48:40 AM How it can be played out if there 'might not be cheats in the final 27' is beyond me, tourney has been compromised, has to stop.
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Boba Fett on January 21, 2014, 12:54:18 PM Don't they have state of the art cameras recording everything from every angle at these casinos? Rewind through the footage and follow the fake chips from stack to pot to stack until eventually they find people putting them into play. Would take teams of people a bit of time but surely they can handle it. I guess refund and comp anyone that's busted already is deffo a start and wait for results from investigation before deciding on the rest.
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: youthnkzR on January 21, 2014, 02:15:23 PM Don't they have state of the art cameras recording everything from every angle at these casinos? Rewind through the footage and follow the fake chips from stack to pot to stack until eventually they find people putting them into play. Would take teams of people a bit of time but surely they can handle it. I guess refund and comp anyone that's busted already is deffo a start and wait for results from investigation before deciding on the rest. THIS. Surely they should invest time and money into finding out where the chips came from. It must be possible with the amount of cameras...etc in casinos. Find one culprit and the rest would follow surely. *In before another 'top' pro scandal. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: leethefish on January 21, 2014, 07:46:35 PM Only a few people will get this .......and I won't be allowed to elaborate !
Has the "rock " started playing wpt 's Sorry couldn't resist !! Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Oxford_HRV on January 21, 2014, 08:26:06 PM pretty sad that there will be no considerably fair conclusion. they will have to refund to all that played.
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: MC on January 24, 2014, 09:21:18 PM Interesting who came 28th! ;carlocitrone;
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: KarmaDope on January 24, 2014, 09:22:27 PM Interesting who came 28th! ;carlocitrone; Is it wrong that without even looking, I assume it is Men the Master? Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Delboy on January 24, 2014, 10:59:02 PM (bogus) twitter account sprung up with some funny tweets...
Quote 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 20 @TabDuchateau Clear my good name. @MenTheMaster call me. #chipgate 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 18 The 2 plus 2 rumor mill is spewing lies about my denomination. #chipgate 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 18 @MenTheMaster call me on my private line. We need to talk. #chipgate 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 17 @AllenKessler Meet me in the food line. Leave the bag of chips near the coffee dispenser. Keep this on the hush hush. #winterpokeropen 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 17 @RealKidPoker accusations of me being fake at the #winterpokeropen @MenTheMaster has vouched for me but I need your help! 5k Chips @5kChips Jan 17 @MenTheMaster Good luck in Event 1! #winterpokeropen #1kchipssuck Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: SuuPRlim on January 24, 2014, 11:18:52 PM Roughly 4,000 ppl didn't cash. That's $2m + reg fee, no way they cough that up.
See if you can catch people first and when you do try sue them for the compensation to players money I guess. If not then chop the prize pool as is up and gg the event. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Magic817 on January 25, 2014, 12:41:01 AM http://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/01/christian-lusardi-counterfeit-chips-17347.htm
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: kinboshi on January 25, 2014, 07:36:51 AM Is it likely he was working alone, or the only one who 'benefited'?
Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: TightEnd on January 25, 2014, 10:20:48 AM Barry Carter has the latest...
http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/Man-arrested-in-Borgata-chip-smuggling-case_80765/ 42 year old Christian Lusardi was arrested yesterday after 2.7 million in counterfeit tournament chips had clogged the pipes of his hotel room at Harrah's resort. They had been flushed down the toilet. Lusardi was one of the early chip leaders in the event, which was cancelled with 27 players remaining after fake chips were discovered. He was eliminated on day 2, cashing for $6,814....etc Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Doobs on January 25, 2014, 10:47:37 AM Barry Carter has the latest... http://www.pokerstrategy.com/news/world-of-poker/Man-arrested-in-Borgata-chip-smuggling-case_80765/ 42 year old Christian Lusardi was arrested yesterday after 2.7 million in counterfeit tournament chips had clogged the pipes of his hotel room at Harrah's resort. They had been flushed down the toilet. Lusardi was one of the early chip leaders in the event, which was cancelled with 27 players remaining after fake chips were discovered. He was eliminated on day 2, cashing for $6,814....etc The twitter feed of @7thecho us worth reading back. FWIW the toilet incident was known about before becauseIcan posted his story. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: tikay on January 25, 2014, 11:03:37 AM 3 things in this story interested me. How many runners? 4,800? Wow! Interesting how the WPT have attracted so much negative noise, whilst the villain of the peace seems to have escaped censure from the poker masses. What strange people we poker players are. But mostly......if you have not played in a Live Poker Tourney where chips have been weeded on, then you can't have played many, it used to be widespread, may still be for all I know. I've seen it happen in at least 4 Venues, to my certain knowledge, though we are going back a few years. 3 of those Venues still operate, but I'm sure they are tickity boo these days with monitoring chips. I played in a Room less than 2 years ago where 3 Tourneys of different buy-ins were on the go at the same time, & all three Tourneys used the same set of chips. Obv, nothing untoward arose, as I spoke to the Manager & he assured me they kept their eyes open. Yes yes, quite so. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: lucky_scrote on January 25, 2014, 05:53:42 PM It's so easy to introduce fake chips into a tournament I'm sure.. The fact that something can so easily put a huge tournament tits up is incredibly unfair on borgata & WPT.
I Guess something like this had to happen sooner or later. It won't be long until people have technology built into their sunglasses for some kind of advantage be it to read body language, count chips, catch a glimpse of cards via a camera built into a card protector. The list goes on and as daft as any of the above sounds, the technology will be/is available and sunglasses will eventually be banned from live tournaments. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: SuuPRlim on January 25, 2014, 10:41:24 PM Prolly should ban sunglasses really.
I remember ages ago playing this game in l.a and someone I didn't recognise sat down with glasses and this guy (can't remember his name, I believe he owned a bunch of oil) said "take those glasses of, no glasses in this game" the guy responded in a German accent he had glaucoma, the other guy was so animated stormed off and came back with his doctor friend and demanded he see if he actually had glaucoma lol obv this guy was neck/back specialist and had no clue but after 5 mins of shouting confirmed the guy had glaucoma and we got on with the game :-D Btw how stupid are these guys, flushing 940 chips down the toilet? Why on earth would you do that? At the hotel the event is held as well. LOL must be some scumbags with a bit of common sense getting away with all sorts ... Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: Sweetman on January 27, 2014, 11:55:45 AM Btw how stupid are these guys, flushing 940 chips down the toilet? Why on earth would you do that? At the hotel the event is held as well. LOL must be some scumbags with a bit of common sense getting away with all sorts ... This is exactly what I thought. So you find out the chips have been rumbled, why would u try and get rid of nearly a thousand of them in the toilet in the room that has your name on it?? Surely, pack em up and take a drive out at night and dump them somewhere....jeeeez. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: lucky_scrote on January 27, 2014, 02:24:18 PM Making counterfeit chips seems something that any muppet could do. It's hardly difficult to come up with.
Take a look at this site: http://envisioningtech.com/envisioning2012/?ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008 It shows the predicted jumps in technology and what we have to expect. I think everything up until now has surpassed what everyone had imagined would be possible so it will only be a matter of time until all electronic devices, sunglasses etc will be banned. Why not do it sooner rather than later? Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: SuuPRlim on January 28, 2014, 01:09:52 PM Btw how stupid are these guys, flushing 940 chips down the toilet? Why on earth would you do that? At the hotel the event is held as well. LOL must be some scumbags with a bit of common sense getting away with all sorts ... This is exactly what I thought. So you find out the chips have been rumbled, why would u try and get rid of nearly a thousand of them in the toilet in the room that has your name on it?? Surely, pack em up and take a drive out at night and dump them somewhere....jeeeez. Yeh was talking about this, I think actually they could have done near on anything else with the chips and would have been better, they could have just wrapped then up and thrown them in a bin in the hotel, or even in his room lol and I doubt they'd have been discovered. Give a taxi driver $500 and tell him to drive it to the nearest public bin and hope he isn't too moralistic, could actually have prolly have put them in a box and left them at the bell desk forever. Might turn to crime... Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: david3103 on February 25, 2014, 10:09:14 AM More developments: http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/cancellation-borgata-tourney-due-fake-chips-sparks-class-action-lawsuit-589251/ (http://www.pocketfives.com/articles/cancellation-borgata-tourney-due-fake-chips-sparks-class-action-lawsuit-589251/) "As far as what the lawsuit is seeking, the Press of Atlantic City explained, "The lawsuit filed in Atlantic County Superior Court alleges fraud and negligence on the part of Borgata and accuses the casino of failing to properly supervise the event. The claim seeks refunds of the players' buy-in money and entry fees as well as reimbursement for incidental damages, such as travel costs." Seems a pretty reasonable claim to me. Surprised nobody is after $1MM for emotional damage. Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: TightEnd on April 14, 2014, 10:42:35 PM http://www.theborgata.com/assets/pdf/poker/winter_open/2014wpo_event1_resolution.pdf
cliffs Day 1a WPO entrants get refund except for players who busted out before 4:30pm Day 1B players who played in Signature or Poker Room will not get a refund Day 1C players will not get a refund, Day 2 players will get a $560 refund, players firing multiple bullets may also be eligible Title: Re: Questions surrounding the WPT Borgata counterfeit chip scandal... Post by: dakky on April 15, 2014, 03:47:04 PM So all they are doing is putting the rake back into the pot and then chopping it? The top 27 basically getting screwed and a ton of people getting a freeroll.
Doesn't seem like much of a punishment! Borgata should probably be contributing more. I don't really know what a fair resolution is however. |