blonde poker forum

ive been using one particular site for the last 2 months and am unable to win on it. i have had my 1st losing month playing poker since almost a year ago, and it just gets worse everyday. the thing that particulalry makes me think its fixed are the huge hands that people keep getting, (especially in cash games) and the ridiculous outdraws. my most recent bad streak of bad beats (and the worse sequence i have ever heard of let alone seen) included 3 hands in a row where i was over 95% each time being outdrawn by hands that were simply unexplainably playable in the circumstances (all 3 were all in after the flop, and all three were drawing to runner runner to win, which they obviousy hit) and in particular one person was drawing to 2 specific cards in the deck of which he had to hit both of them to win. it seems that these ridiculous sorts of outdraws/bad beats only seem to come in large pots too. now in my opinion things like that just dont happen in poker. ive been playin mainly live poker for 6 years now, and have never seen anything like this, do i just have to stop playing on the net?

Um firstly welcome to Blonde.

I can honestly say that i am convinced that online poker is all above board, there is no way on earth that the sites would risk fixing pots for the $3 rake when their name and reputation is on the line (as it were). Just because something is unlikely to happen doesn't mean it won't happen, it just happen less often. I and many other people have poker tracker databases and this shows on mine as in many other that the hands dealt and the winning %'s etc are exactly in line with statistical expectation. In fact i trust playing online more than i do live, where you face same village problems.

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=5777.0

another post you may want to look at.....

As for whether its fixed or not who knows, but it always strikes me as odd that the better players constantly win over a long period of times whereas the bad players dont........

maybe thats just coincidence ;)

longy nice to meet you and thank you for your reply. i understand what you are saying, and maybe i am just going through a rough time right now. i know everything in poker is possible, but 3 outdraws like that in a row???
  Aspades Ts vs  6h 6d flop:  9s 3s 4s  turn: 9d  river: 9c
 Ad 4d vs  Js 5h  flop:  2d 3d  5s turn: 5c river: Jd
 3h 3s vs  8c 8d  flop:  3d 3c   Ahrt turn: 8h  river: 8s

now the same person winning the lottery 3 times in a row is theoretically possible......

oh yeah none of these hands were soe played either.

lol, in two of the three examples you started with the worst hand - and in the case of example 3 you are only a 20% favourite to win so you were lucky that you outdrew your opponent to start with.

Without seeing any of the full hand histories showing stack sizes and how the hands were played, when the money went in etc etc - whether the games were cash or tournaments or sng's then its hard to comment on any of the examples you've given but the fact that the three examples you've shown were of you losing with marginal hands maybe there in lies your problem........

If you believe that online poker is rigged then maybe its worth taking a break from it - then after a while when you feel you want to play again watch the site you would be interested in playing on for a few weeks first to see whether your fears have been averted.

With all the technology and hand histories available freely from most poker sites - if there was a big conspiricy i think someone would have discovered patterns by now......

sebdaboss, if we assume these three hands occured one after the other, the chances of you losing them all (assuming there wasn't actually 2  5h in the second hand) are about 1,283,000/1.

There are millions of poker hands played everyday on the internet. Therefore, online poker would be rigged if things like this didn't happen every single day.

i heard a similar point made recently. if the best hand always won it would be proof that it WAS rigged. if you never saw anyone get A,A twice back to back it would be proof it WAS rigged.

runner runner F/H twice,  followed by runner runner quads, well I'm afraid I'd have to see it to believe it, but thats not to say I don't think it's possible.

I've been playing 5 years and dealing about 6 months. snce I started dealing I've noticed more and more amazing things and the lower the stakes, the more outrageous the outdraw. the £10 beginners night, you wouldn't believe the runner runner stuff people hit because they won't pass a draw, however thin it is.

yep,

what i thought..you were behind in 2 out of 3 and even though you caught a flop you werent technically outdrawn

He actually was outdrawn - all the money went in on the flop, when he was well ahead.

matt thankyou for replying to my question, in the case that i went in wit hthe worst hand twice, i wasnt playin tournaments, i was playin cash, so with these hands in a cash game the idea is to see a flop. if it were a tourney then there most probably would have been a raise which would have put me off. although that also could be a reason why im losing at the moment, i am mainly a tournament player but have been learning how to play cash properly off of a very succesful cash player, but however i play, i cant explain this kind of beat. i have had plenty of bad beats in my poker life, but i have never experienced anything like this. ans for all you sceptics, i wouldnt be in this forum if i didnt get those beats. Its not just those beats though, every time im ALL IN with the BEST hand, i just know it will be outdrawn on the net. it just doesnt happen that often in live poker.

I have to say I'm fairly convinced that there is a fair amount of collusion in cash games using Microsoft messenger. I am a consistenly winning player albeit at small/medium stakes (MTTs, STTs and cash), however I have always had problems at cash games on the internet but do well live. I have thought hard about possible differences between live and online play and whether or not it is me being rubbish at online cash.

Looking back at all my stats for last year online cash games were my only losing game and I really don't think I'm that bad, although I could be deluding myself. I have also heard many whispers from other players that this does happen all the time. Hence my new years resolution was to quit online cash games.

I'm happy to receive criticism from those who don't beleive me but these are my thoughts.

3 weeks ago i was convinced it was rigged.

I'm at a $2/$4 cash game, I've been there an hour and only played/won 3 hands showing A A, K K and A K (so they know i dont play rags).

Anyway i get A A on the button, there's 4 limpers before i get to act ($22 in the pot). Ii bet $24 and the bb raises to $100. Everyone folds back round to me, with his huge raise i put him on a strong hand (too strong to throw away). I've got little over $420 in front of me so i push it all in. Without thinking he calls for his remaining $360 or so, our cards get turned up and i see his 3 6 off suit, the flop comes A 4 5, the turn an 8 and the river a 7 made him a straight!

5/10 mins later different table i get a k hearts, 2 limpers in the pot so i raise $24. Everyone folds and 1 guy calls, the flop comes k q 9 with 2 hearts (i have top pair top kicker and nut flush draw). I lead out for $24 and he raises me another $48. I've got about $270 or so in front of me and just go all in with it, he calls the cards get turned up, i have a k hearts and he has 2 3 offsuit? (im totally stunned) the turn comes 2 river comes 2!! f**kin unreal.

I started to think why anyone would ever play this way with their own money? I convinced myself he only played like this because he knew what was coming. How else can you justify playing this way with your own money?

The first hand seemed to come a way that i was destined to lose it all (i flop trip aces and he flops up and down) but the money was in preflop so it didn't matter.

Back to the question is it fixed? who knows definitely something fishy though

Online Poker is NOT rigged.

People DO collude online (& Live) though, which is an entirely different thing.

You need a motive to rig things. What would the site's motive be?

It's Murphy's Law at work. If it can happen, it will.

Please mystery...Paragraphs, capital letter and punctuation!

I do not mean to be a spelling monitor, but I just find it unreadable


Your posts are certainly, ahem, original...and people would be able to appreciate their unique virtues much more if you helped us out a bit


I am going to edit this post above just for paragraphs etc.

Personally, when I see posts presented like this I don't bother to read them. They are hard to read and the effort is seldom worth it.

me too - thats why i dont play cash......

like woodsey said i think online cash games are too easy to use IM's to collude and even though sites to come down hard on anyone suspected of colluding i still wouldnt trust it 100%, but then thats the individuals not the site. at least with MTT's the seating is a random draw.

next time you are playing in a live game and you see a "sexed up flop" that suits both players or someone hits a perfect river card to out draw an opponent say out loud "its just like playing on pokerstars (or which ever site it is you play) and you'll be surprised how many times you say it in one night........

is internet poker fixed? 


was it broken?

I fixed it.

I borrowed RED-DOG's screwdriver.

this evening I saw a couple of odd hands.
first one I limped with  2d 2h. player to my left also limps. button and both blinds also see the flop
comes  9c 5d 2c . I bet limper to my left min raises, others pass. I call
turn comes  7c, I check, limper checks
river, a  2s giving me quads.
I bet he raises all in I call. he had  Tc 3c
best hand won the hard way.

later in same tourney, I'd got short. blinds were 600/1200 I go all in for 4000 UTG with  Kh Qh and am called immediately by  4h 8h
I flop a K turn and river are  8c 4s
 these both happened live and I personally dealt them.

UI also dealt a flop and turn of  6c 6d 6h 6s with a river  Kh the guy with  7s 7h wasnt best pleased but as it happens only the river got him his chips back otherwise the other player would have picked it up with Q high

on presvious occassions I've also personally dealt or seen a royal flush on the board and AA v KK v QQ v JJ and the Jacks win. I've seen AA v AA won with a flush and I've seen quads  v quads.

you put enough hours in you'll see it all

Online poker rigged?

I'm suprised no one has posited this idea before!

Seriously though, like Tikay says, ask yourself what the motive of a site would be. They stand to gain so little through the relatively miniscule extra rake gain and lose so much, through loss of reputation and business.

Sites don't need to rig games. They make large sums of money through running legit games, and their biggest challenge is persuading more customers through their door, not bumping up the rake a few percent.

Most sites have audited RNGs if you want to investigate further.

These are all long standing, well debated arguments.

The debate tends to seperate people into 3 camps.

Group 1 The Mystical Sceptics - Those who think that online poker is rigged. Other firmly held beliefs include the oft voiced opinion that "aces always lose",  that cracks in the pavement should be avoided and the notion that trolls reside under bridges wielding large clubs.

Group 2 The logicians - Those who believe that logic dictates online poker is almost certainly not rigged. Other beliefs include the idea that  cracks in the pavement are neither malevolent nor benevolent, that aces will hold up roughly 80% of the time and that sitting at a cash table full of mystical sceptics is a good way to spend time.

Group 3  The impish antithesists - This group may hold an assorted collection of beliefs and can fall into either of the above camps at given moments but their main concern is playing devil's advocate to whichever side holds sway in the current debate. Other beliefs include the idea that replying to long carefully written arguments on forums, simply writing "lol" is great fun.

After flirting initially with group 1, I myself now vacillate between groups 2 and 3.

 

At Notts, when I was dealing one night, we saw TT, JJ, QQ, KK, & AA in the same hand.

And the board came.....

A........2-3-4-5.

Proves the game is fixed.

thanks

One of my mates rang up a popular site some time ago when he was being outdrawn in supposedly mysterious circumstances on a regular basis.

Their response was fairly reasonable - playing live, players tend not to make dodgy calls or bets because of the risk of retribution and / or embarrassment there and then, plus the fact that it is hard to push your own cash / chips into a pot when you are a big dog.

On line, however, people are far less bothered about clicking a button to put "invisible" money in the middle, and the possibility of getting abuse on the chat facility. So you get more muppet calls needing runner runner or an individual miracle card. The site said they dealt cards with the same random nature as live poker, but what they can't control is the percentage of players who play with bad hands that hit, and hit big.

I can go along with this - how many times in live games have you folded pre flop, or folded after the flop needing runner runner and have seen those cards come out? How many times has someone on your table said the same thing - "I'd have won that hand if I'd have played it"? ; "I'd have hit this / that / the other...."

I was experiencing out draws after outdraws playing cash on line, and was starting to think the same thing, so I stopped playing. After a while, I wanted another go so thought about what I needed to do to win. I realised I was just crap at Omaha so I started playing hold 'em (always played Omaha cash as a change to HE tournaments) and have won 10 sessions out of 12, and only lost small amounts on the other two.....

POTD.

My guess is that it wasn't Party Poker who delivered this response.

I'M FIRMLY IN THE DEVILS ADVOCATE GROUP!

Ironside, I always read your posts. Despite your aversion to punctuation and your frequent typos. You rarely write more than one sentence, occasionally if you are feeling particularly verbose you might stretch to two. This I find managable, especially as there is often an effort to entertain.

My guess is that it wasn't Party Poker who delivered this response.


Couldn't possibly say which site publicly. The lad was broke though.

I agree, oh and btw, lol/