blonde poker forum

Seems like a standard spot to me, but, after consultation, I've been left questioning my river decision.

15k starting stack. Blinds 25/50. I'm the youngest at the table by 10 years. Villain (button) late 50s at a guess. Glasses, casually dressed, looks comfortable at the table. Stacked his chips sensibly, rather than in comedy piles. No other info available.

Cutoff makes it 100 to go. Button calls. I have  Kh Kc in the small blind and raise to 300. Both call.

Flop  Th 5c 2s

I bet 500, which is called by the button.

Turn  3d.

I bet 800 and he calls quickly.

River  7d. 

I bet 2,100 and he asks how much, then raises to 6,100.

He called so quickly on the turn, I was convinced I had bet too little and could get more on the end.

I thought this was a standard fold. Convince me otherwise.

(Bust the comp four hands later JT < 77 on 67898 Bleugghhhhhh...)

Well, when I say "no other info available", I mean no other relevant info. Holmesian deduction suggests:

- married
- American but not local
- non-smoker
- here on his own (unironed polo shirt)
- been here a week (creased from folding, so likely still out of the suitcase or put the shirt in a draw as packed by his wife)
- 5'9"
- 14 stone ish

:)

Definitely bigger pre, and then probably bigger on the flop. This is important because it compounds a lot on later streets, and people don't fold much here pre.

Huge chat tells on the river, wouldnt enjoy having 22 here.

edit: Love the Sherlock esque reads.

Flop bet on such a pants board? Appreciate up against two players, but happy to get two lots of 500, rather than one 800. Or get AT/JJ to get creative.

Prob should focus on getting value. Fair enough.

And yes, chat tells ftw. Or not.

nobody has ever asked how much and then raised with a worse hand.

fold seems good tho, he has a lot of sets.

Hard to get two callers and can still get two if you get 800 :O

Don't mind your size when you make it this small pre, and I am talking about small differences but they do add up.

No, that's fair enough. With hindsight, I agree. Could have gone 500 pre.

yeh wayyyy bigger pre, 1k is probably better than 300.

flop id bet 1k too.

river seems trivial fold, may call if flop was a little wetter.

So, what's your ideal bet sizing through this hand? Assume if you go 1k pre you only get one caller, if you like.

Yerp I'm making it at least 500 and can see myself going bigger in this lolfest. As has been said, villains are going to be quite inelastic to sizing so go ahead and bet big, it won't decrease your chances of picking up calls significantly. River play is standard, he has worse here <1% of the time imo

elementary fold on river. post more though loved the insights.


def go huge pre. it's the rio daily lol

*claps*

over 500 for me too, between 600 and 900. Also, fold river. Also, fold pre. Elementary, my dear Tal.

Disappointing.

fwiw, i dont think sherly ever said that

He never said "Elementary, my dear Watson", no.

He did say "Don't call me Sherly", though.

Reference plz? ;)

It was in The Case of the Poorly Functioning Airborne Device. Here's another excerpt:

Dr Watson: Well, I don't have anything to say, you've done the best you could. You really have, the best you could. You can't expect to win em all. But, I want to tell you something I've kept to myself through these years. I was in the war myself, medical corps. I was on late duty one night when they brought in a badly wounded pilot from one of the raids. He could barely talk. He looked at me and said, "The odds were against us up there, but we went in anyway, I'm glad the Captain made the right decision." The pilot's name was George Zip.
Sherlock: George Zip said that?
Dr Watson: The last thing he said to me, "Doc," he said, "some time when the crew is up against it, and the breaks are beating the boys, tell them to get out there and give it all they got and win just one for the Zipper. I don't know where I'll be then, Doc," he said, "but I won't smell too good, that's for sure."
Sherlock: Excuse me doc, I got a plane to land.

I feel this could degenerate into a sherlock holmes appreciation thread if I post what I was about to. So, I won't, this is the PHA, so to return to topic, <3 them live tells.

Hi Mr Tal

To be frank, I think your sizing pre is actually quite a big leak if this is standard you, for a few reasons:-
- given the action so far, you're almost always going to be playing three way, possibly 4+ if others tag along.You're going to end up regularly in spots where either (1) you fall behind on the flop/turn/river to at least 1 opponent and struggle to lay it down (and in this example, even when you do river fold you've lost a significant chunk) or (2) you get exploited on the turn/river with bluffs by players who are either good and know you likely have a big pair and believe they can get the fold, or not so good players who just want to bluff you off your hand for shits and giggles.
- you're playing 300bb's deep. Your raise sizing with aces/kings type hands should increase in line with the average big blinds in play, as even if you go 10x there's a strong chance at least one player will tag along. Importantly though, it should narrow your oppnent's ranges (as almost everything your opponents limped in with the 100 will make up the 400...). Another side point to this is your C-bets will be more effective due to the relatively increased size of the pot-stacks. In the hand you played, there's a good chance you'd have took it down on the flop, for example. When you are bet-raised etc, it becomes easier to 'get away from' if yo opponent has called sizeable bets pre and on the flop/turn
-  the key point, given you're 300 bb's deep, is you want to build the pot and maximise the number of chips you can take from 'stations'. Weaker players will look at the amount invested and find it difficult to fold that raggy top pair because they see value.

I got the sense you weren't too convinced about Mr Picken's advice on the raise-sizing but I would strongly suggest thinking about this more when in similar future spots, deep stacked, as i reckon there'll be a pattern of winning small pots a decent amount of the time and losing big pots a similar proportion.

Fwiw, I'd have gone around 650-700...

I'd quite like the 4x size if you had 25-40 bb's btw!

Thank you for that, Mr Dwayne.

Should put all of this into context: I thought this was a completely standard fold but, after telling someone else, they suggested differently (along the lines of "donkament. Get it in and reenter"). I wasn't convinced, so posted it up here for confirmation that I was right. That's all, really.

As for the 3bet size, as soon as I typed the post, I did think it was too low. I should point out there were only five stacks at that point, although still raising more would have been right. Subconscious first hand desire not to go out? Probably not. I have been hauled up for preflop sizing in the past (about a year ago on a hand I posted here), so, whilst I don't consider it to be a general issue, it's an observation I'm happy to concede when it's made.

I didn't think I'd done anything other than agree with anyone who suggested raising more pre. I did ask what Pleno would have done sizing wise on the board as it came down. As played, 1k pre and 1k on the flop does mean we are making interesting stack decisions on turn and river. So, as you're here:

650 gets two callers. What's your flop bet?

One caller. Turn bet?