blonde poker forum

Vs Regular.

GAME #5931517944: Omaha  PL €3/€6 2014-08-22 20:30:42/GMT
Table Croom
Seat 1: ToooouchMe (€1,191.70 in chips)
Seat 3: zfdynamic (€482.52 in chips)
Seat 5: WerewolfMoves (€600.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Lil Dave (€894.90 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: tASTEmYdISH (€603.00 in chips)
Seat 10: enflounder (€580.50 in chips)
tASTEmYdISH: Post SB €3.00
enflounder: Post BB €6.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Lil Dave [DA SK DJ CQ]
ToooouchMe: Fold
zfdynamic: Fold
WerewolfMoves: Fold
Lil Dave: Raise (NF) €15.00
tASTEmYdISH: Raise (NF) €51.00
enflounder: Fold
Lil Dave: Call €36.00
*** FLOP *** [D3 C3 SJ]
tASTEmYdISH: Bet €54.00
Lil Dave: Call €54.00
*** TURN *** [CK]
tASTEmYdISH: Bet €132.00
Lil Dave: Call €132.00
*** RIVER *** [H8]
tASTEmYdISH: Check
Lil Dave: Bet €480.00


Could 4bet pf, raise the flop, fold the turn and check the river....

What you think???

I'd 4 bet pre and look to get it in... as played would chk back river, not sure what sort of hand he has that is worse and calls off.

I would probably 4 bet it pre and be looking to get it in. Always flatting the flop too, probably fold the turn. Doesnt he have to have AAxx by that point? Certainly checking back the river if i get to that point.*

*I have never played at anywhere approaching these stakes so am likely to be massively wrong!!!!

I'd raise flop think €144  villain can fold which would be nice, can't see them 3b this sizing, is that likely to happen?

not as good as you chaps, and certainly dont play as high, but for me , as the villain i'd be thinking like this:


pre flop

lil dave raises, he's good, but does he have a hand? lets raise him and see what he does


flop

ok, he didnt 4 bet me so i have to rep something here, and its omaha so i have to rep AA**, i'll bet about half the pot


ok, he's called, might have hit that J, surely not a 3 though

turn

righto, got to continue here cos this is omaha and i have to let him know i have AA** and do not fear his J*** hand, i'll bet 60% of the pot

ahhhhhh, lil dave has called me again, damnit!!!!

river (an absolute blank card in my eyes btw, nothing gets there except 88** and not even the worst scandi maniac from 2006 would still be in with 88** there)

ffs, he's called everything i've done here, i give up and hope he doesnt bet too big and i can show down AJ/QQ/TT

lil dave has bet the pot (ish) fhslansjkneybhajajneoi !!!!!!!!

then it turns into one of those make your own adventure books:

if i call my AA, turn to page 45
if i fold my AA turn to page 57
if i fold my rags, turn to page 73

AKxx might call because a flop float by hero could have picked up a bundle of draws on the turn. 

I don't think that its great to be very polarised in these situations, which you would tend to do by checking back a lot hands.  Betting a lot of thin value would surely allow you to bluff more, (might be wrong about this tho).

So much depends on history for me.

Villain doesn't have to have AAxx, I'm not too enamoured at 3b to 8 bigs playing 100+ eff from the SB myself. Am not a sicko though and play tournies mainly - is any AAxx an auto 3b in this spot at this level?

But barreling twice...total airball feels unlikely - AAxx, KKxx or at least a similar rundown hand to Hero that's hit 2p or a draw on turn. Personally check river as can't see Villain calling with worse and think he'll trap/bluff catch with the same hand or better a fair amount.

I do prefer a peel pre rather than a 4b/c, but I don't like smashing it in pre with this type of hand when deep. But it's all history, could fold turn, could 4b pre - though I don't think I'm ever raising flop or betting river without serious metagame.

If I'm 3bing the SB I'm double barrelling everything on 33Jr
I think you are most likely raising flop for protection and to narrow villains range, what do you think villainwill continue with?

Overall are we only thinking villain is 3b AA and good KK and QQ?

will villain 3b double pair hands and medium wrap hands some funky double suited stuff?

Do you ever r/f btn?

Thanks for replies, kinda cool hand to keep looking at this one :)


Yeh, sure. Pretty rarely though, I think hands to fold are hands such as  Ac 8s 5s 3d (I'd open this ofc OTB, plays pretty bad vsa 3b) maybe hands like  Ac 6h 6c 4c as well, low pairs, unsuited aces without any big cards with them and disjointed low runny down type hands are the ones to fold.


Absolutely. These games people 3bet from the SB vs btn opens pretty wide, he has enough random 3's in his range, I've seen people show up with A963ds QQ84ds.


Agree, and no AA** is not an auto 3bet, in fact given what I said above about the hands people 3b in these games and the fact that bad and even mediocre AA** are not good hands to 3b in this spot I'd say that of his 3b range from the SB under 50% of it is AA**. This changes a bit ofc like you say given the history between the players, if I start to 4bet a lot of his 3bets from the SB vs my btn opens then he wants to start 3betting worse AA** combo's as the liklihood of beinf 4bet and being able to 5b AI increases. MY natural adjustment to his high 3b % from the SB would be to 4bet more aswell, and bad AA will play excellent vs my 4bet range ofc as hands like the one i have and AKK* are the first hands to go into that range.

 
When I call the flop it's very unlikely I'm floating. J*** JJ** 3*** J3** 33*** KK** QQ** are pretty likely the hands I have, and given i'll have a hand like this fairly often there is very little need to float. I'll raise 3*** fairly often, JJ** sometimes and obviously nothing as a bluff - the hands I'll usually pick to bluff here are hands that have a pair between 44 and 99 in them. I'd not raise J*** as a bluff here I'd call and go from there, bluff catch, showdown or consider bluffing depending on what happens.

The King is a good card for him to barrel in the sense that now pretty much all my J*** hands that aren't J3 or KJ have to fold, certainly a good spot to bet again with AA. I think given that I do have 3***, JJ** in my range he doesnt want to barrel 100%, so he'll pick the times he picks up some equity, a FD or a wrap I'd imagine. So the question, will he barrel a total airball, I think it's very unlikely. Is this a card he'll be (semi at least) bluffing ever? Yes. I think so.


Defo not wrong! the good thing about 4betting pre-flop is that he is likely to make a call with a lot of hands that are dominated by us, worse suits, lower A*** and rundowns that need our cards. When he 5bets AI, we're not in good shape but by this point weve made our bed and will be lying in it!


Interesting but when I bet the river it was as a bluff!

Things to think about I think are
1) How often to we have the best hand
2) How often is he "slow-playing" the river
3) How well do we rep KK JJ K3 J3
4) What does he do with A3** and AA**
5) What hands do i get to the river with the HAVE to bluff

As Sklansky said "you aren't bluffing enough unless you occasionally get called by worse" (or something like that)

Just had a decent week in Spain for less than that, so I would say probably do that.  Or hookers.

lol


serious question, is river a merge?

River is defo a merge, can call worse and fold better. Dave probably thinks he bluffing more than getting called with worse id guess.

Once you don't 4bet pre think the hand is standard

First thought was 4bet, prefer flatting actually now though. Can't really see any other options post to how you played it, a lot of people would probs check river but I think bombing is the better play. Its also pretty nice not to have to show down this particular hand in this spot.

I can't think of a good reason not to 4b pre?

I also don't much like the river bet - are we calling to spike our 7-outer and bluff when behind, or because we think we're ahead a decent amount?

On 4betting pre-flop, I defo agree that its prolly the "standard" play vs someone with an aggressive 3b vs steal...

Sometimes though I feel like you get a lot more value from these spots by playing slower with a hand that is so strong vs his range, but which value goes down massively when 5b... kinda the decision between him over-commiting with very dominated hands post-flop and him over-committing with dominated hands pre-flop.

I honestly dont know if 4betting is better than flatting or not, I just think it's one of those spots where the subtle approach MIGHT be better...

The river bet is a bluff, but I can see myself getting called by AK, can also see 3xxx, KJxx and AAxx both folding as I feel like i do rep KK JJ K3 J3 all pretty well. If he has 3xxx it will prolly be A3xx and he might very well expect a value AI from a worse 3 (possible) so A3xx (the vast majority of his nake 3xxx hands) might really struggle to fold. I think the River bet is more targeted towards KJ and AA (and AK to a certain extent)

Not saying it's right, but I think calling turn and checking back river is prolly bad, if you dont jam the river I think you might be better off folding the turn... Although that might not be right either.

Are rundowns like 3456 in his 3 betting range? AA3x? They would be the only ways i would be seeing to give him the 3 after 3 betting flop, or am I being a bit thick there?

KKxx must be a massive part of your range in his eyes along with JJxx so now I think about it I dont actually mind the river bet THAT much, it looks quite difficult for him to have that many houses in his range, especially as we have blockers.

To stop banging on aimlessly...
.
1) How often to we have the best hand - barely ever? Just dont see what he can have at this stage that we beat by checking back
2) How often is he "slow-playing" the river - Looks like he may have a 3 or AAxx to me in his hand, but i just think houses are so unlikely in his range the way the hand has been played, so I dont think it is one that he can really slow play.
3) How well do we rep KK JJ K3 J3 - Very very well, particularly KK and JJ I think, JJ in particular looks likely by the time we bet the river, check/call on flop and turn actually looks fairly strong the way the baord has run out.
4) What does he do with A3** and AA** - on the river he should fold AA, A3 is a bit more tough, but I would probably bin it in his position. Is that too weak?
5) What hands do i get to the river with the HAVE to bluff - this one i would need some help with please :)

Well what hands we "need" to bluff with basically equals;

Hands that call the flop, and the turn which lose to most of his river range once he checks.

KJ is pretty interesting I don't think think many people think that I'd do anything other than check back KJ OTR. I think the vast majority of the bluffing hands OTR are J*** hands that have clubs, or JQT. Most other J*** will fold the turn, and there isn't really any naked K*** hands that are possible unless I've purely floated the flop which I think isn't something that I'd be interested in doing.

I think it's decent for him to assume that every time I get to the river with a hand that can't beat AK (which won't be all that often) then I'll bluff with it. That range is as I said J*** with clubs and JQT.

The rest of my range is, 3*** JJ** kk** and ofc there is KJ** which is the hand right on the line of bluffing and value-betting - Beats AK, and loses to AA...

How I would usually think about a spot like this is consider how often he would check the river with KK/JJ/K3/J3/AA/AK/KJ/A3

I think he will never check the river with any value hand that included a JACK. As my entire bluffing range OTR needs me to have a J in my hand. If he has JJ or J3 then he'll bet the river (or at least should imo) 100% of the time. KK and K3 are the ones he might consider to check, given that most of my "bluff catching" range = KJ, if he has KK or K3 then he's relying on me to have a 3 to call off, and given he has no J there is a higher chance of me bluffing the river.

AA, A3, KJ and AK are interesting hands for him, I think he could defo bet for value with A3 (worse 3***, and KJ can call) but it's a little worrying for him how completely un-capped my range is - How much % of the time i call with A3 be winning, not very often, imo. The same, and more applies to AA because every 3*** beats him. AK would prolly make a slightly better bluff catcher than KJ because KJ blocks a J which is a card we need me to have to be bluffing. I don't think he's going to expect me to either VB or bluff with KJ so I think in his mind KJ and AK = the same.

I think he should check call KK and A3 as stnd, Jam JJ, 33 and J3 as stnd, check fold KJ as stnd, check AA and AK, call sometimes fold sometimes (as vague as that is) so use those as "emergency bluff catchers" to use when he thinks I'm floating the flop/turn ever. K3 could go into either Jam or c/c but I think prolly best in Jam as stnd, that would be next hand to move out to c/c again if he thinks I'm floating the flop wider.

As for bluffs for him, pick hands that were total flop airballs that picked up FD's or wraps on the turn. Doesn't wanna bluff any hand with a J in it, imo. as the weak hands I'll be folding will almost always include a J. effectively I would jam any hand that can't beat QJ by the river. (assuming he barrell's the turn the correct amount with the correct hand)

He had A963ds, and he called. Which apart from the ropey 3bet pre-flop (this is quite fashionable these days though these 3bets) I would say he played the hand well.