Title: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 01:00:35 PM everyone is pretty tight and going with any aaxx, any a2xx and most a3xx hands. the odd donk is shoving anything pretty regardless of whether they have a low, but most of those players have bust now
this is a call right? is it still a call vs seat 2 and seat 3 shoving? PokerStars Hand #125382341494: Tournament #1043255687, $5.00+$0.50 USD Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit - Level VII (50/100) - 2014/11/19 12:00:53 WET [2014/11/19 7:00:53 ET] Table '1043255687 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: FRED RUSSO (1441 in chips) Seat 2: eFKa_13 (4088 in chips) Seat 3: Acho88 (5025 in chips) Seat 6: willrobrobu (8048 in chips) Seat 7: gomer7777 (2500 in chips) Seat 8: hunni a.d. (1725 in chips) FRED RUSSO: posts the ante 10 eFKa_13: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts the ante 10 willrobrobu: posts the ante 10 gomer7777: posts the ante 10 hunni a.d.: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts small blind 50 willrobrobu: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to willrobrobu [7h 5d 8h 4d] gomer7777: folds hunni a.d.: raises 1615 to 1715 and is all-in FRED RUSSO: calls 1431 and is all-in eFKa_13: folds Acho88: folds willrobrobu: Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Oxford_HRV on November 19, 2014, 01:35:52 PM i'd much rather call this in NLO, i'd still snappage this, but always folding vs seats 2 or 3 getting involved.
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 01:45:58 PM If anyone can convince me that 4-5-7-8 is a call for 17 Bigs in NLO8, I'll officially admit I'm past it. NLO, maybe, but NL08? Have to confess, never played NLO8, but I just assumed it is wider ranges than PLO8? But THAT wide? Yikes. (http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/a9/a9e6bcef3f532e5fb252718c2d78c6b7a3d670537810138fe229624c03a951ff.jpg) Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: MC on November 19, 2014, 01:53:50 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here.
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:01:59 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here. Ahh, it never crossed my mind that this was a Turbo, guess that widens ranges even further. Even so, I could never get comfy calling with a hand like that for 17 Bigs though. Doobsy seems to do quite well at NLO8 Turbos, maybe he'll have a better idea. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 02:11:29 PM it's not a turbo. it's a painfully slow structure that makes me desperate to want to get all my chips in with any 4 cards
in this specific hand we aren't heads up, it's 3 way. i think heads up i probs wouldnt call more than 5-10bb depending on oppo. 3 way though, if they both have A2xx hands we will be a significant favourite much of the time, surely? obviously if one of them has AAxx and the other a2xx our equity wont be nearly as good but i thought maybe the hand would still be good enough to hold its own vs most 3-way holdings. plus them both having a2xx is way more likely than one having aaxx and the other a2xx no? this is just gut instinct/educated guesswork, i havent done any calculations (whats best software for nlo8 range/equity calcs?) Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Honeybadger on November 19, 2014, 02:12:39 PM This is definitely not a call.
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 02:21:22 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here. Ahh, it never crossed my mind that this was a Turbo, guess that widens ranges even further. Even so, I could never get comfy calling with a hand like that for 17 Bigs though. Doobsy seems to do quite well at NLO8 Turbos, maybe he'll have a better idea. I'd definitely fold here, but think it is absolutely fine for calling/shoving heads up with something like 10BBs. Double suits make a big difference. Good hand for tilting those fresh from PLO8 too. Will pop up the link to the best equity site later, sure Adam can help if he is around. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:21:41 PM it's not a turbo. it's a painfully slow structure that makes me desperate to want to get all my chips in with any 4 cards in this specific hand we aren't heads up, it's 3 way. i think heads up i probs wouldnt call more than 5-10bb depending on oppo. 3 way though, if they both have A2xx hands we will be a significant favourite much of the time, surely? obviously if one of them has AAxx and the other a2xx our equity wont be nearly as good but i thought maybe the hand would still be good enough to hold its own vs most 3-way holdings. plus them both having a2xx is way more likely than one having aaxx and the other a2xx no? this is just gut instinct/educated guesswork, i havent done any calculations (whats best software for nlo8 range/equity calcs?) I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding you, but..... 3 way though, if they both have A2xx hands we will be a significant favourite much of the time, surely? Why would that make us "significant favourite"? They already have the nut low draw, they don't need to hit. (For the Low). I suppose that, 3 way, we wont be far behind for the High, but we play to Scoop, not split, don't we? Maybe you are suggesting that 3 way against A-A-2 & A-2-x hands, we will often win the high in a 3 way pot & so make a (small) profit? It's extremely unlikely in my mind that we can scoop 3 way with 4-5-7-8. Almost every card that hits us also hits the A-A-2 hand for the Low. I just don't want to go to war with a hand that has such poor scoopio possibilities. You are opening my eyes, though, I do need to widen my ranges a bit. Not quite THIS far yet, though. ;) Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 02:23:08 PM This is definitely not a call. surely its close at worst. we MUST be about 40-45% here a bunch of the time THREE WAYS. when we get dominated surely we can't be far off 30%? this isn't a weekly 530 it's a 5.50 where constantly through the whole game and regardless of stack sizes most of these guys are 'A2 = all-in'. you constantly see big aipfs a2xx vs a2xx. if anyhand is going to go three ways vs two shortstack A2xx'ers this has to be the one no? Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:24:12 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here. Ahh, it never crossed my mind that this was a Turbo, guess that widens ranges even further. Even so, I could never get comfy calling with a hand like that for 17 Bigs though. Doobsy seems to do quite well at NLO8 Turbos, maybe he'll have a better idea. I'd definitely fold here, but think it is absolutely fine for calling/shoving heads up with something like 10BBs. Double suits make a big difference. Good hand for tilting those fresh from PLO8 too. Will pop up the link to the best equity site later, sure Adam can help if he is around. I can manage the shove part, just about! It'd not tilt me, good Lord no, but I'd deffo raise an eyebrow & make a new note on the Villain...... Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 02:25:23 PM ok i believe that its a fold now, because i've been told so by lots of peeps... i'm just not sure why. it feels like we are getting it in sooo good!
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:29:22 PM ok i believe that its a fold now, because i've been told so by lots of peeps... i'm just not sure why. it feels like we are getting it in sooo good! If it were PLO, yes, but it is just very wrong in O8, I'd say. We are getting it in with one end crushed in O8. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Oxford_HRV on November 19, 2014, 02:33:33 PM our hand has great board coverage and usually a chunk of good turns when we miss, it plays well enough vs unconnected jamming hands. i'd expect the two jammers block each others outs often enough and be over playing lo hands enough of the time which is never a gtd share of the pot. we got loads of chips and we are last to act. its pretty tough to get it in drawing ultra thin. as willrobrobu says these guys are gii with most a2 and a3 hands and i'd imagine any big pair hand with lo danglers.
lets say we are up against the worst of it when we call and villains have Ad 2d 9s Tc Ac Kh 4h 7s both flush draws are crushed and we have pair and straight outs blocked we still have 25% equity pre when we are up against more favourable hands we have 35% Ac Aspades Jh 2d Qs Qd 4s 3c it's not a turbo. it's a painfully slow structure that makes me desperate to want to get all my chips in with any 4 cards in this specific hand we aren't heads up, it's 3 way. i think heads up i probs wouldnt call more than 5-10bb depending on oppo. 3 way though, if they both have A2xx hands we will be a significant favourite much of the time, surely? obviously if one of them has AAxx and the other a2xx our equity wont be nearly as good but i thought maybe the hand would still be good enough to hold its own vs most 3-way holdings. plus them both having a2xx is way more likely than one having aaxx and the other a2xx no? this is just gut instinct/educated guesswork, i havent done any calculations (whats best software for nlo8 range/equity calcs?) we will never be significant fav's vs two A2xx hands or even get over 40% but this hand will still be good enough nearly all of the time to hold its own 3 way. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 02:37:06 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here. Ahh, it never crossed my mind that this was a Turbo, guess that widens ranges even further. Even so, I could never get comfy calling with a hand like that for 17 Bigs though. Doobsy seems to do quite well at NLO8 Turbos, maybe he'll have a better idea. I'd definitely fold here, but think it is absolutely fine for calling/shoving heads up with something like 10BBs. Double suits make a big difference. Good hand for tilting those fresh from PLO8 too. Will pop up the link to the best equity site later, sure Adam can help if he is around. I can manage the shove part, just about! It'd not tilt me, good Lord no, but I'd deffo raise an eyebrow & make a new note on the Villain...... Heads up in NLO8 he should be shoving a large range off 10BBs, hence anything double suited with a low draw should be good enough for the low 40s% equity we need to call. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 02:41:45 PM i get 45% equity on a dodgy iphone app i just downloaded with first (admittedly sl rigged to be favourable) set of hands i put in:
4h 5h 7d 8d - 45% Ad 2c Ts Jh - 30% Aspades 2d 2h Qc - 25% Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 02:48:57 PM i called and lost the lot in actual game.
PokerStars Hand #125382341494: Tournament #1043255687, $5.00+$0.50 USD Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit - Level VII (50/100) - 2014/11/19 12:00:53 WET [2014/11/19 7:00:53 ET] Table '1043255687 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: FRED RUSSO (1441 in chips) Seat 2: eFKa_13 (4088 in chips) Seat 3: Acho88 (5025 in chips) Seat 6: willrobrobu (8048 in chips) Seat 7: gomer7777 (2500 in chips) Seat 8: hunni a.d. (1725 in chips) FRED RUSSO: posts the ante 10 eFKa_13: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts the ante 10 willrobrobu: posts the ante 10 gomer7777: posts the ante 10 hunni a.d.: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts small blind 50 willrobrobu: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to willrobrobu [7h 5d 8h 4d] gomer7777: folds hunni a.d.: raises 1615 to 1715 and is all-in FRED RUSSO: calls 1431 and is all-in eFKa_13: folds Acho88: folds willrobrobu: calls 1615 *** FLOP *** [Ks Kc Ad] *** TURN *** [Ks Kc Ad] [3c] *** RIVER *** [Ks Kc Ad 3c] [3s] *** SHOW DOWN *** willrobrobu: shows [7h 5d 8h 4d] (HI: a pair of Kings) hunni a.d.: shows [7c 2h 3h Ah] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces) hunni a.d. collected 568 from side pot FRED RUSSO: shows [2d 3d As 2s] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces) hunni a.d. collected 2202 from main pot FRED RUSSO collected 2201 from main pot No low hand qualified *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 4971 Main pot 4403. Side pot 568. | Rake 0 Board [Ks Kc Ad 3c 3s] Seat 1: FRED RUSSO showed [2d 3d As 2s] and won (2201) with HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces Seat 2: eFKa_13 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Acho88 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: willrobrobu (big blind) showed [7h 5d 8h 4d] and lost with HI: a pair of Kings Seat 7: gomer7777 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: hunni a.d. showed [7c 2h 3h Ah] and won (2770) with HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:49:21 PM I've been playing a few nlo8 turbo mtts recently and just educated guessing at wtf to do. I wouldn't even think about calling here. Ahh, it never crossed my mind that this was a Turbo, guess that widens ranges even further. Even so, I could never get comfy calling with a hand like that for 17 Bigs though. Doobsy seems to do quite well at NLO8 Turbos, maybe he'll have a better idea. I'd definitely fold here, but think it is absolutely fine for calling/shoving heads up with something like 10BBs. Double suits make a big difference. Good hand for tilting those fresh from PLO8 too. Will pop up the link to the best equity site later, sure Adam can help if he is around. I can manage the shove part, just about! It'd not tilt me, good Lord no, but I'd deffo raise an eyebrow & make a new note on the Villain...... Heads up in NLO8 he should be shoving a large range off 10BBs, hence anything double suited with a low draw should be good enough for the low 40s% equity we need to call. Yup, but thats different to a stone cold call for 17 Bigs, imo. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 02:51:25 PM i called and lost the lot in actual game. PokerStars Hand #125382341494: Tournament #1043255687, $5.00+$0.50 USD Omaha Hi/Lo No Limit - Level VII (50/100) - 2014/11/19 12:00:53 WET [2014/11/19 7:00:53 ET] Table '1043255687 3' 9-max Seat #2 is the button Seat 1: FRED RUSSO (1441 in chips) Seat 2: eFKa_13 (4088 in chips) Seat 3: Acho88 (5025 in chips) Seat 6: willrobrobu (8048 in chips) Seat 7: gomer7777 (2500 in chips) Seat 8: hunni a.d. (1725 in chips) FRED RUSSO: posts the ante 10 eFKa_13: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts the ante 10 willrobrobu: posts the ante 10 gomer7777: posts the ante 10 hunni a.d.: posts the ante 10 Acho88: posts small blind 50 willrobrobu: posts big blind 100 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to willrobrobu [7h 5d 8h 4d] gomer7777: folds hunni a.d.: raises 1615 to 1715 and is all-in FRED RUSSO: calls 1431 and is all-in eFKa_13: folds Acho88: folds willrobrobu: calls 1615 *** FLOP *** [Ks Kc Ad] *** TURN *** [Ks Kc Ad] [3c] *** RIVER *** [Ks Kc Ad 3c] [3s] *** SHOW DOWN *** willrobrobu: shows [7h 5d 8h 4d] (HI: a pair of Kings) hunni a.d.: shows [7c 2h 3h Ah] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces) hunni a.d. collected 568 from side pot FRED RUSSO: shows [2d 3d As 2s] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces) hunni a.d. collected 2202 from main pot FRED RUSSO collected 2201 from main pot No low hand qualified *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 4971 Main pot 4403. Side pot 568. | Rake 0 Board [Ks Kc Ad 3c 3s] Seat 1: FRED RUSSO showed [2d 3d As 2s] and won (2201) with HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces Seat 2: eFKa_13 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: Acho88 (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: willrobrobu (big blind) showed [7h 5d 8h 4d] and lost with HI: a pair of Kings Seat 7: gomer7777 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: hunni a.d. showed [7c 2h 3h Ah] and won (2770) with HI: a full house, Threes full of Aces That was, to be fair, a really brutal flop for your hand. But if it comes low-low-low, you'd probably be in just as much trouble. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Oxford_HRV on November 19, 2014, 02:58:34 PM wp for gii with over 40% equity. ul.
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 03:08:21 PM wp for gii with over 40% equity. ul. Surely the 40% equity is as results orientated as the fact he lost the hand? Against proper ranges 40% can't be the right answer. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: willrobrobu on November 19, 2014, 03:19:49 PM wp for gii with over 40% equity. ul. Surely the 40% equity is as results orientated as the fact he lost the hand? Against proper ranges 40% can't be the right answer. absolutely. im not sayingi have 45% equity vs their entire ranges. but when their ranges are both heavily weighted towards a2xx where xx= ATC i wouldnt be surprised to see an overall equity of above 33%, presumably we need sl less than that to make the call from the bb? Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Oxford_HRV on November 19, 2014, 03:21:38 PM wp for gii with over 40% equity. ul. Surely the 40% equity is as results orientated as the fact he lost the hand? Against proper ranges 40% can't be the right answer. huh? he got it in with over 40% which i am really surprised to see. i meant in such a way where i was implying it must be nice. we will never be significant fav's vs two A2xx hands or even get over 40% but this hand will still be good enough nearly all of the time to hold its own 3 way. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 03:27:12 PM wp for gii with over 40% equity. ul. Surely the 40% equity is as results orientated as the fact he lost the hand? Against proper ranges 40% can't be the right answer. absolutely. im not sayingi have 45% equity vs their entire ranges. but when their ranges are both heavily weighted towards a2xx where xx= ATC i wouldnt be surprised to see an overall equity of above 33%, presumably we need sl less than that to make the call from the bb? Marginal shove, bad call, bad call is my instinct. Can't prove it now though. Will have a look after work and get that link for you. I think A223 is probably the worst call here. The first shove is probably ok, but would much prefer a king, queen or big pair to go with my A2. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: rfgqqabc on November 19, 2014, 04:15:17 PM Propokertools.com
On kindle so can't do myself easyily. I'd fold without much thought. Too hard to scoop Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: tikay on November 19, 2014, 04:23:39 PM Propokertools.com On kindle so can't do myself easyily. I'd fold without much thought. Too hard to scoop That's my gut & immediate feel, too, though I have no statistical evidence to back it up. We play to SCOOP. I think assuming the other two are weighted towards A-2-Low-Low hands is a mistake, surely we should assume a better balanced range, A-2-3/Paint, A-2/Paint/Paint, A-2/High Pair. I'm as nitty as nitty can be, but I can happily gii with any High-Low Combo that includes A-2-K. I just can't get my head round middle-middle-middle-middle, as its is so hard to scoop. Interesting thread. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Ironside on November 19, 2014, 05:39:01 PM I would insta fold, might shove sb if folded to me
Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 11:49:41 PM I have had a mess round with propokertools.
It is hard to move OP's hand vs a reasonable range far from the 30-33% range. I think if you are in that range you are still making an ICM error by calling and you really shouldn't be taking such a marginal option in a $5 nlo8 tournament you should be able to crush by getting it in good vs people who call off with A223. Title: Re: nlo8 Post by: Doobs on November 19, 2014, 11:53:56 PM Should have added that if you are heads up with Tikay and he has never played the game before and thinks it is right to just shove the top 10%, you are still 45% vs his range. Hence that makes the call correct with a fair few big blinds.
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