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Hi

Got pulled over for not wearing seat belt - immediately admitted it and said to 1st police person fine  just write me out a ticket. He said NO NO NO and went to speak with the 2nd police person. 1st policeman came back and said to me your been quite decent about this i really do not want to give you a ticket but my partner in the car is saying i must. So i have decided to give you a warning ticket which means you will not get points and just have to attend a safety awareness course.

I said i bet you the safety awareness course will cost more money than the fine and 3 points - he said how do work that out.

1. The standard fine is £60 - the safety awareness course is £85
2. I will have to take the day off so been self employed will lose a days wages
3. Fuel and parking costs for getting to the course

He gave it some thought and i said so just write me out a ticket -----  NO NO NO he said - i am going to write you out a warning ticket.

Anyhow, now received the paperwork so the question is do i go on the course or pay the fine

Paying the fine and 3 penalty points would be the better option in not losing out on a days work

But if anybody has been on one of these courses and felt they learnt something i am open minded enough to go on it.

Cheers

Mike

Not sure if it is the case for every type of 3-point penalty, but most of them also affect your car insurance premium for 3+ years, so there is the additional cost in that too potentially.

I've been on the course, 20 minutes of content squeezed into 4 hours. Knowing some basic physics and applying it to braking distances annoyed the instructors somewhat.

Only thing I learnt was how many drivers have no clue what the speed limits are.

If your car is a business vehicle then surely its +EV to take the course rather than pay the insurance premiums?

absolute no brainer to go on the course, especially with your attitude. teach you a few things about the safety aspect of wearing seat belts

cost, time etc should be very much secondary as reasons to go/ not go on the course

Agree with this but be prepared to meet some incredibly boring jobsworth trainers.  The course i went on i actually couldn't believe someone could get so excited about a speeding course as the guy who took it.

i don't disagree, but my course had the characteristic that EVERYONE attending went in thinking they knew everything, with the wrong attitude etc, me included "its better than points"

absolutely certain people learn more than they think they have at the end of it, i did

Wrote a long reply but - probably mercifully - it crashed before I pressed post.

Basically this:


Take it seriously because you were caught doing something stupid. The insurance premiums have to include the cost of people doing more damage than they needed to. If yours goes up, so be it.

http://www.iam.org.uk/media-and-research/media-centre/news-archive/20598-50-years-on-people-continue-to-ignore-seat-belt-laws-at-their-peril-warns-the-iam

At the end of the day, we all do daft things and it happened to be your turn this time. Learn from it, take your punishment and move on with the positives.

If you do choose the course, I would be interested in hearing ITT what you thought of it.

Sorry that this is a bit ranty. All the best. :)

No brainier for me, I need to drive for work so will do anything to avoid points. How important is driving for your job for you?

Can't say I learnt too much when I did one of the courses, then again I wasn't too open minded about it so that was my fault...

I attended the course with a massive hangover and despite that managed to find it quite informative.

The video they showed at the end which was a re-enactment of a major motorway crash was a real eye opener for me as to how easily these crazy accidents can happen.

Definitely +EV to do the course. Forget the fact that you'll save a few points just accept that sometimes courses are designed to actually teach you something.

Bet ya still drove home possibly still over the limit from the night before though  :D

I went on an evening course straight after work

I agreed to the course but on the day couldn't make it. Send an email saying flu bug blah blah. Get a reply saying np book another day. Decided I couldn't take a day off after all so email saying refund my monies and I'll swallow the points. Never heard anything again. Winner winner chicken dinner!

all of this 100 times over.


just go on the course it's so much cheaper longterm.

I may or may not have been on both a red light awareness course and a speed awareness course, you really would be amazed by how little the other people know, how little they learn, and how moronic the jobsworth who run the courses on the day can be.

Im still in the process of busting my sunday mtts, but if you'd like to read a rant about gen pop and these courses i'd happily oblige :D

Deffo do the course next week you could lose concentration and go thru a speed camera at 38 mph and bang another 3 points
Then jump a light 3 weeks later ....Before you know it your on 9 points and last chance before a  ban
Just sayin

Did the course, made me slow down for a while after the course but soon returned to my normal style except,  In a built up area (30) I stay in 3rd gear so forces me to remember why I have to slow down.  Nearly all attending  the course stated that  it was  a positive experience, but duuuuuuuuulllllllll.

In fairness I think it would be hard to run a course like this unless your were a jobsworth. I think it's a requirement for getting the job in the first place lol.

the speed awareness course was run by the AA I think and the 2 people there were really good. the red light course was an absolute disgrace, the guy was a prick and we overran by 35 minutes because I ended up arguing with him the whole course. everyone in the room is meant to have their say and speak up but no one else had to be because I wouldnt let him be a bullshit merchant.

i assume he recommended the road rage course too? :D

I was in the right, he was a twat.

I only rage when I wait for someone and they dont acknowledge that ;)

My Mrs done the speeding course and said it was a lot more informative than she expected, but also boring as takes far longer than is needed. She did also say how many of the other drivers on the course had absolutely no idea of speed limits!!

She did it as was far cheaper when taking into account 5 years worth of insurance premiums

I've got less tables now so i'll cliff note rant away.


Red light awareness course, maybe 25 people in the room, myself and one other knew the answer to the tricky tricky question of 'what is the order of traffic lights.....'

A woman at the front kept stating that she would be driving through red lights after the course because its absolutely fine, repeating this even after watching footage of horrific death crashes as people try and blast through last minute and get caught out by their ineptitude/mr lorry or mr large stationary object etc.

the guy didn't think she needed anything more said to her though...

we were asked who had known they had gone through a red light, I was the only person who said they knew they were doing it, I also pointed out I would be doing it again as it saved me from being involved in a car crash from the gibbon swerving across multiple lanes into the space I had just left. he didnt seem to give a shit that they are all terrible drivers with no clue whats going on around them or how to follow green and red lights but he'd ticked his 'have I patronised them with this question box'.

later he provides a diagram of a junction with 3 vehicles approaching it and explains a situation where the 3 vehicles have a crash. both from knowing how to drive and which way a car faces, and from the way he described it, it was clear that all 3 had driven incorrectly and were all partially to blame. he goes round the room asking each person which car a b or c was at fault. they all just saying random letters without a clue or a thought. Comes to titty and I state 'all 3'.... he then explains how its got to be one person fault and I MUST give a single answer. 5 minutes later he realises that my response of fuck off and stop being a twat was my final answer, he randomly enters me in one the squares. he gets the rest of the responses and procedes to lecture us on how we are all wrong and its all their faults for different reasons.....

it was at this point that I became even more vocal and the rest of the session was me pointing out how much of a prick the guy was.

at the start of the course he'd corrected someone that we weren't criminals as it was a civil matter yada yada, proceeds for the rest of the course to call us criminals, constantly patronising us with quips like 'maybe you shouldn't have got caught' and other such classics.


suffice it to say my already low opinion of other drivers, has gone down each time I have to spend any time with them. the RLA course was a real procedure of stupid bureaucracy, and I gained nothing from it, nor should I imagine did anyone else.


it's an absolute no brainer to do these courses though because of the effect bans/points have on your insurance.

Fewer.

I've been on the course, 20 minutes of content squeezed into 4 hours


Excellent!

Nanny state nonsense.  The opening poster knows that if he doesn't wear a seatbelt his brains will be splattered all over the wind shield if he has an accident.  Why does he need a Government worker to spend 4 hours explaining that to him?

I can see the logic in educated speeding drivers though.

you don't think not wearing a seat belt has an effect on other road users too?

Does it?  Crash head on.  One driver dies, the other doesn't.  Unless you are talking about psychological damage from being involved in a fatal accident?

In any case, I don't see why a 4 hour course is needed to state the absolute blinding obvious. 

Meh, would rather suck up a course however useful it is than take the points.

You are right, but we got caught breaking the law, & so we have a choice - points, or a 4 hour course. 

We just have to suck it up.

relatively minor crashes that a driver wearing a seat belt would be able to control become far more serious if that driver is NOT wearing a belt and gets flung across the inside of the car, causing them to lose control of their car.

any yes, flying through the windscreen for a bigger collision is an issue as that can cause more danger for others, as well as the psychological damage to others, and the clean up.

It's the law, not an advisory. If it's so blindingly obvious, why do (a minority of) people not wear it?

Because they are idiots?   That said, I have to say a set of circumstances where a passing motorist is hit by a flying corpse ejected from a car is probably grasping at straws.

By the way - didn't mean to imply opening poster is an idiot - I'm sure it was just a one off!

it's not the danger of being hit by a flying corpse.
It's that it's much easier to lose control of your vehicle if you're in a collision not wearing your seat belt.

Should be points AND a course IMO.
Same goes for speeding, using phones, jumping lights, etc. 

I think the crux of why we don't see eye to eye on this is I put speeding/using mobile way above someone not weating a seatbelt in terms of seriousness.

If there was a ratio for self harm to "harm to others" then the former would be 20/80.  The latter would be 95/5 (and the 5 is being generous).

I'm just getting insured right now actually, and it says

"Please let us know if you've ever been on a drivers awareness course"

So presumably they'll be increasing the premium for that? But not as much as if you took the points?

Or maybe they reduce it because you now have more knowledge?

I believe Alex has the correct interpretation here.

Suggests that the insurers have little faith in the efficacy of the courses.

My Insurance has gone from £1800 to £650 in 3 years!

Head on crash, person not wearing belt goes smashing through windscreen, what/who do you think they are going to hit next?

I would assume insurers think badly on this because why else would you go on one of these courses in reality unless you had committed a 3 point offence and wanted to dodge the points on the licence?  Not even sure if you can just attend them without committing an offence first.  You would have to be a seriously sad fecker to want to.

If it doesn't go on to your licence, then how would your insurers know if you have or haven't been on one of these courses - other than you telling them?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but that just means you're getting old.

So we are back to the dangers of flying corpses?  My point is that the possibility of a speeder killing a pedestrian is reasonably high.  The possibiity of someone smashing clean through their windscreen and having enough kinetic energy remaining to smash clean through a second windscreen and kill another driver is small.  People not wearing seatbelts are largely putting themselves at risk - fine them if you want but don't waste time putting them on 4 hour "re-education" courses.

I didn't wear a seat belt from the age of about 18 through to about 22. Don't know why I just didn't see a problem with it as I wasn't planning on having a crash.

At that age a friend of mine (non-seatbelt wearer, not planning on crashing) had a minor crash that resulted in him losing the use of his arm.

That pretty much re-educated me.

Seeing those stupid adverts where they slow things down and show you what might happen with lots of fake blood are pretty pointless. See something real and I think the re-education side of it is far from pointless.

My car has a really annoying loud beep that goes off if the driver has no seatbelt on - good feature in my opinion.  It's literally impossible to drive without your seatbelt without tearing your hair out.

Back-seat passengers can do real damage to those in the front seats if they're not wearing seat-belts - as demonstrated in that TV ad.

But I guess Mummy or Daddy being killed in a crash when they could have survived if wearing a belt will affect their kids in a pretty big way as well.

Yep so fine them.  Why do you need a government official to explain one sentence to you in 4 hours?

It gets people talking about it, and that in itself could save lives.

On the speed awareness course I went on they told us you do not have to inform your insurance company you have been on one of the courses, and that they shouldn't even be asking you.
They recommended you give them a bit of a bollocking for asking.

I think it's a good initiative to attempt to re-educate drivers, rather than just hit them with points and a fine for relatively minor and first offenses. I'm a relatively careful driver. I routinely drive at or below the speed limit. My speeding offense was a genuine error in an unfamiliar area, on a quiet sunday afternoon, blaj blah. It was a good reminder to me to pay extra attention in those circumstances. Like someone earlier in the thread said, the biggest eye opener for me was the attitude and lack of knowledge of the majority of the people on the course. Many had no idea of the various speed limits of their vehicles in different situations, and many felt that things like speed limits, pelican crossings, seat belts, etc should be optional. Scary how bad some of them seemed to be.

Sure they're a long, boring, expensive and patronising, but maybe those are all necessary factors.

I'd have more unmarked police cars and hidden speed cameras if it were up to me. if everyone followed the rules of the road, we'd all be better off.

We don't - but we got caught breaking the Law, & they gave us a choice - points on our licence, or a Course.

We lost all our negotiating rights when we got caught.

I got caught using my Mobile whilst drivng around 7 years ago, & chose to take the course.

The Course was a bit of a rude awakening, when they told us stories like this.....


 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-31312480

To clarify I'm certainly in favour of courses for speeding/mobile phone use.  My point is that speeding/mobile phone use is reasonably likely to kill someone else whereas seat belts largely impact the drivers themselves (aside from the more obscure circumstances that have been brought up).

So I'd differentiate between the offences and have fines for seatbelt misuse and points/courses for speeding/mobile phones.

I would stress that I am a careful driver and always wear a seatbelt.

I just don't see what they can say about seatbelts outside of 3/4 sentences.  Excessive Government interference gets my back up.

Surely most people who are killed whilst not wearing a seat-belt have families that are affected by their death?  Hardly 'obscure'.

Deaths always impact family.  The obscure part is the situations where it is not the driver himself who is physically impacted by his stupidity in not wearing a seatbelt.

If we are going to bring the family into it then we should start sending smokers and drinkers on 4 hour Government courses every weekend until they stop.

Could bore them into quitting?  Sounds like a plan!  Maybe smokers should be forced to listen to bad-beat stories whilst they smoke, that'd help.

ya more on that, on the speed awareness course, during a 'whats the limit here and here quiz' we had a 'professional lorry driver' not know the speed limits for lorries :D

I couldn't help pointing out that he was a shit professional and an utter prick  (  [ ] that went down well.....) for quite smugly saying that he was a pro but no he literally had no clue of any of the limits relating to his vehicle type. he didn't seem embarrassed, wasn't saying oh they've changed over the years just an utter 'meh oh well'.



so it's not just gen pop that has no clue about what's going on around them on the road.

Definitely agree with this although I'd be really pissed off when I got caught.

They've recently introduced a new 20mph speed limit near me which is apparently going to make the roads safer.

What's the point when they didn't even enforce the old 30mph limit? All that will happen is that the sensible people who used to do 30 will do 20 and the idiots who don't give a shit still won't give a shit.

Rant over.

the worst people are the ones who do 'X' mph regardless of road conditions.

30 in a 40, 30 in a 60, 30 in a 20 etc  utterly incompetent.

So we should only protect against death? You could easily have a body fly through a window and hurt someone.

If it was not going to effect anyone else i would be with you, if people are stupid enough to drive without a belt on then I am all for maximising the chances they get removed from the gene pool.

Not sure if I got flashed by a camera on the M1 last week. How long does it normally take to hear if you have a ticket etc?

2 weeks.  Thinly veiled 'i have had plenty of experience'

ya alot of the gantrys over the road have the cameras turned on now, originally they just put a tonne of the lines down but now the cameras are on aswell.

similarly if you go through the variable speed limit zones those cameras change to match the limits and give them dat revenues.


you'll get the 'who was driving' letter through the post within 2-3 weeks or so I have heard :p

As i started the op i going to say that those to those who bang on about wearing seat belts, i had two hi speed crashes ( serving in the military driving normal cars) on both occasions one with a passenger, one solo on both times NOT WEARING A SEAT BELT SAVED MY LIFE -

We are meant to live in a democracy so what you might think is right i might think is wrong and vice versa

also cars are much more safer now a days with better impact bodies and air bags 

I once had 72o beat Aces all in pre, i'd still rather take the aces next time.

"living in a democracy" doesn't mean choosing which laws you want to follow and which you want to disregard.

Since when? lol

erm, since forever?

I think we choose every day mate to be honest, you never chosen to break to law? I think most of us have at some point or other.

That's not what a democracy is though.
Completely unrelated.
If you choose to break the law, you face the consequences.
If you want to change the law, that's where democracy comes in.

And no, I don't break the law. In fact I have a job that requires strict adherence to the law to perform and would lose it if I did. :)

Well I break the law all the time, am 44 years old and have never faced any consequences. (Edit- other than speeding)

So you have never sped in your car?
Never gone through a red light in a 50/50 spot when you weren't sure whether to stop or go?
Eaten food when driving?
Parked on a double yellow line?
Parked with 2 wheels on the pavement?
Downloaded music/films illegally or watched illegal stream? Boxing ones even? lol

I could go on there are tons of laws, which get broken all the time. Now I'm sure there is the odd person who really never breaks the law, but most people claiming that would be lying  ;nana;

So you have never sped in your car? Not knowingly. Got done speeding twice as genuine mistakes. 3 points first time (before courses existed), did the course second time. No complaints.
Never gone through a red light in a 50/50 spot when you weren't sure whether to stop or go? No. I've seen lights go amber as I travel through a junction, but never red. I pay extra attention as I approach junctions and stop for amber/red lights.
Eaten food when driving? Very rarely, but eating/drinking/smoking (not that I do) while driving are not specifically illegal. The offense is not driving with due care and attention, which I do.
Parked on a double yellow line? No
Parked with 2 wheels on the pavement? No
Downloaded music/films illegally or watched illegal stream? Boxing ones even? lol No. I am strongly opposed to copyright theft. I pay for all my music/film/TV/etc

No, I alway give due care and attention, even on very rare occasions I've eaten when driving.

Eating while driving is not against the law.
Drinking veg without a seat belt, plus the other things you listed are, so I don't do them :)

Someone should call the police  /:-| :D

Epic piece of searching there Woodsey, that was just the 9 years & 5 months ago.

Incred skilz.

Took all of 20 secs, sorry Adam just messing with ya   ;nana;

Lost me I'm afraid

You were asking someone for a football stream, doesn't matter i was just joking around.  :)

Don't think I was.
Think I was asking for the link to a game of Yahoo chess I had been challenged to.

Don't recall ever watching a streamed football match

In fact the only reference I can find in any post I've ever made regarding illegal streaming/downloading is a passing congratulations to another poster for using legal methods


Not such incred skilz after all :)

I might add I never wear a seatbelt and never have. I also have a clean licence and have never been in a traffic accident in like 25yrs of driving.

My grandfather on the other hand, who would answer no to every question, went to the doctors surgery and drove straight through the front of the building and came to rest in the reception.

Its beyond my powers of imag to consider i could have lived this long and never have parked up on a kerb. Generally v obedient in a car since a speed awareness course but cant do 70 on a motorway and not much fussed about seatbelts

My condolences MANTIS

Lol. Wp Adam.

Reckon Adam is in a huge minority to be honest......Doubt the rest of us are as honest, well about being honest anyway lol  ;whistle; ;D   Fair play to him if he really never breaks any laws, most of us do for sure.

Alright, hands up, I lied about pulling up on the kerb.
When I'm out gigging and we're unloading the gear it is sometimes necessary to pull two wheels up on the kerb outside a venue and whack the hazards on for a few minutes while we lump the amps in. However, we always take care not to cause a nuisance for anyone, especially venues' users, owners, workers and neighbours (easiest way not to get re-booked).

I suppose my point about following laws/rules is that in most cases, it would benefit everyone.
Specifically with road use, if suddenly, tomorrow, everyone drove at or below the speed limit, left appropriate stopping distances, signaled before they maneuvered, used their mirrors, let people in/out whenever safe to do so, and generally acted within the rules and with a bit of courtesy, we'd all be much happier when we got where we were going, and we'd all be a lot safer.

But they won't and a lot of people can't bear the idea of someone getting ahead of them and getting their sooner at their expense. Personally, I don't take my ego in my car with me. (I leave that in my guitar bag and get it out at the weekends to wave at everyone ;) )

You're right though, I'm quite aware I'm in the minority, which is why it was quite frustrating when I did get done for speeding recently. I had a family member spend a bit of time in a hospital out in Staffordshire and I was doing extra 5 hour round trips a couple of times a week. Big mix of unfamiliar country roads, towns, motorways and main roads, and lots of roadworks and varying speed limits. Despite spending 99% of my time driving within the limits and having thousands upon thousands of cars whizz past me, It felt unfair that I didn't spot the change from 40 to 30 within a set of roadworks on a quiet Sunday afternoon and got flashed, but everyone else seemed to be able to drive at whatever speed they wanted, as long as they slowed down for the cameras their twat-nav was bleeping to alert them to. But thems the breaks. Did the course, costing money I couldn't really afford, and sat in a room full of people who generally seemed to think they should be able to choose their speed, whether or not to wear a belt, whether or not to stop for lights, etc.