blonde poker forum

Harrington's quote  about ' when somebody tells me they layed down middle set after an intricate train of reasoning, i silently think 'idiot' (something like that anyway)

Do you think this applies to cash games also?
Playing last night $2/$4 NL HE
Late position raises to 24
i am on the button with KK and i call hoping to trap as the guy normally puts out big continuation bets, (also i would like to see if the ace comes)
BB calls also

flop J,8,2 rainbow.
BB checks
Raiser puts in a raise of 32
I raise to 64
BB re raises to 150
late pos dwells and folds
I move all in for around 600
BB takes every second before eventually folding

He has folded 88 as he is certain that i have JJ as that is the only hand i could possibly make that move with.
If it was the other way round my chips would have beaten his into the pot.

Is he right to lay this down?

I posted an article in my blog on laying down set in a cash game a few weeks ago.... it's a mugs laydown

If you hit middle set on an uncoordinated flop, and someone else has top set, it's quite simple. You give the other guy all your money.

Laying it down is the sign of a player who likes to think of himself as cleverer than he really is, that he can narrow his opponent's holding to exactly 2 cards. "Hey, look at the laydown I made!"

I hope you showed your KK...

i didn't but he's a non tilter so couldn't see any benefit in it. i confirmed he was right and i had JJ, he's a regular foe so i want to keep him sweet.

I have just read your blog splash. Most enjoyable.

And be able to push him off middle set in the future... :)

Lets hope hes not on blonde......
nice hand though. and hes an idiot

Surely you'd be trying to keep him in the pot with top set?

I think Harrington has it right in this case.

Good point.

 another intresting hand last night that sent me broke - blinds 50/100

UTG (similar stack to mine 5000ish) Raises to 400
button (big stack 14000) calls
I'm in the bb and call also with AJos

Flop A76

i check
utg checks
button raises 400
i call
utg passes

turn J (no flush possibilities)

i check
he bets 1400

Do you think i should be looking to get my chips in here? Should i have bet out?

If i have the player down as v good, then the cute bet on flop gets me thinking and I'm check calling.  If i know nothing, then i see him as the big stack trying to bully and I'm raising all in on turn.  I'm not laying down top two pair on a rainbow board.

Thats what I thought. He;d have to have experience of your playing made hand very strongly to decide that you were on JJ there. QQ, KK or AA makes 100% more sense after you reraise.

One thing i could say in his defence is he has seen me bust many fishy players with extremely strong bets, i am continually amazed by the size of bets that will get called. I think your average fish just suspects any big bet is a bluff and cannot get away from top pair. Gawd bless em.

I dont like the call with AJ here. Sooo many hands U are loosing to if an ace flops (ie AK AQ Ax where x is also on the flop)

But when the J comes - GET IT IN!!! If they have a set, well gl to them

Oh , and laying down middle set?!?!?  FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO OTHER THAN POKER!!! (Unless I am in the game that is ;))

He's stoopid....

I got it all in even when saying to myself he has a set, of course he had a set of 66's and i was out. Little bet on the flop just to obvious and reeled me in on the turn. ah well.

I never call a raise with AJ. I might open the pot with it, or re-raise when in the blinds. Otherwise I'll pass.

There's no way he should ever have considered laying this down, however you should have layed down your kings.  What else is he going to check-raise a raise and a reraise with..

My play is undoubtedly questionable but i was more intrested in what he layed down than my fishy play.

TYVM... glad u enjoyed it

My god I never realised he folded it I thought you said he took an eternity before calling.  Can't believe anyone would fold this.

I smell bovine excrement - $4 players don't laydown sets - even if he thinks you have a set, bottom is much more likely than top given pre-flop action.

i shall pull up the hand history when i get home for your perusal mr double up.

Not sure the chat is in there, hope it is.

I'm not questioning what he said - I just don't believe him.

The numbers are slightly different but the theme is the same.
All the chat shows the length of time it took him to fold and his desperate plee for me to show the hand, makes me beleive him.



PokerStars Game #3905290031:  Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2006/02/08 - 17:16:31 (ET)
Table 'Odysseus II' Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Calculateor ($396.70 in chips)
Seat 2: FRiaR SKanK ($561.40 in chips)
Seat 3: dregs125 ($424.15 in chips)
Seat 4: darice ($502 in chips)
Seat 5: S_System ($604.35 in chips)
Seat 6: tommyk1 ($352.95 in chips)
Seat 7: iMTHaDoCTA ($396 in chips)
Seat 8: Miss Pretty ($419.30 in chips)
Seat 9: luckyman71 ($530.70 in chips)
iMTHaDoCTA: posts small blind $2
Miss Pretty: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to tommyk1 [Kc Ks]
luckyman71: folds
Calculateor: folds
FRiaR SKanK: folds
dregs125: raises $8 to $12
darice: folds
S_System: folds
tommyk1: calls $12
iMTHaDoCTA: calls $10
Miss Pretty: folds
*** FLOP *** [8c Jd 3s]
iMTHaDoCTA: checks
dregs125: bets $20
tommyk1: raises $32 to $52
iMTHaDoCTA: raises $32 to $84
dregs125: folds
tommyk1: raises $256.95 to $340.95 and is all-in
iMTHaDoCTA said, "tommy"
iMTHaDoCTA said, "show please?"
Miss Pretty said, "no, don't show!"
Miss Pretty said, "j/k"
dregs125 said, "show the jj"
Miss Pretty said, "show, show!"
FRiaR SKanK said, "lol dont show!"
Miss Pretty said, "show, show, show, show"
iMTHaDoCTA has timed out
iMTHaDoCTA: folds
iMTHaDoCTA is sitting out
iMTHaDoCTA has returned
tommyk1 collected $225 from pot
Miss Pretty said, "show"
tommyk1: doesn't show hand
FRiaR SKanK said, "YEA"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $228 | Rake $3
Board [8c Jd 3s]
Seat 1: Calculateor folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: FRiaR SKanK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: dregs125 folded on the Flop
Seat 4: darice folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: S_System folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: tommyk1 (button) collected ($225)
Seat 7: iMTHaDoCTA (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: Miss Pretty (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: luckyman71 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

The rest of the conversation picked out from the following hands...  i beleive him




dregs125 said, "folded qq"

Miss Pretty said, "noooooooooooooooooooo"

iMTHaDoCTA said, "what else can he have there"
Miss Pretty said, "72"
FRiaR SKanK said, "pocket 2s"

iMTHaDoCTA said, "ha ha"

dregs125 said, "imth  88?"
 

iMTHaDoCTA said, "yes"

iMTHaDoCTA said, "was about to get smashed"




tommyk1 said, "you folded middle set????"

iMTHaDoCTA said, "nb if u did that with less"
iMTHaDoCTA said, "lol"

Miss Pretty said, "not to mention, anyone bluffing is just looking for a reason to show..."






Miss Pretty said, "with us saying show, show... he woulda showed any bad hand"

Miss Pretty said, "(probably)"

tommyk1 said, "you know harrington says 'after somebody tells me how they layed down middle set after some intricate chain of reasoning, i think silently IDIOT'"



dregs125 said, "theres no question it was jj"

dregs125 said, "i folded qq"

iMTHaDoCTA said, "thats in a tourny"
dregs125 said, "he reraises pre with kk or aa"




tommyk1 said, "you wanna know what i had?"

Miss Pretty said, "don't lie..."

Miss Pretty said, "don't lie..."

Miss Pretty said, "oh, do you need an answer? i do, i do!"

Miss Pretty said, "i wanna know"

tommyk1 said, "he just got it back on another table anyway"

tommyk1 said, "JJ"
Miss Pretty said, "good laydown"
S_System: bets $200iMTHaDoCTA said, "as for what harrington says im sure he means in tourny"

ok but it's an appalling mistake

Out of interest, did he show the eights? There's always the possibility that he's lying and all he's folded is one pair smaller than yours.

I know I often lie about the hand I've laid down, usually exaggerating its strength. It gets me into trouble occasionally though, usually when I say I folded the nut flush draw and they then show me the ace of the suit.

not possible on stars.

I wish they would get it as i really like that facility on UB

Hmmm slightly related to this situation there is a thread on twoplustwo no limit high stakes forum entitled "Final Pot Related To Blinds".  Sklansky appears to agree with a second set laydown under some circumstances.

And it's a fine example of why I can't be bothered with the strategy posts over there. I have no doubt there's some clever strategy and incisive thought, it's just that it's prone to obtuseness. You have to wade through a lot of people arguing around in circles to get to the perspicacious stuff.

Plus, every thread that Sklansky contributes to has some guy saying something like 'If you're such a great poker thinker how come I never see you winning anything'...

Can't argue with this.

Let's try to break this down.

What hands could you make this play with? You could have AA, KK, QQ, JJ or 33 definitely. J 8 would likely make this play for protection and 9 10 might move in here as a semi-bluff.

How would each of these hands behave preflop?

AA or KK you might call to trap before the flop. So these are consistent. 33, J8 and 9 10 are all calling hands on the button in this spot and so are equally plausible. QQ and JJ surely reraise preflop against most players, not wanting to let the blinds in cheap.  In fact, of all the possible hands here, JJ is the one you are most likely to have reraised with preflop.

This, coupled with the fact that JJ is 8 times less likely than AA or KK just from the distribution maths makes this an absolutely must call.


Awful fold.

Great for you and demonstrates the power of aggressive play.

Gus - I think we all agree bad fold - but the Sklansky argument interests me.  How many BBs would you lose with middle set here?  What if the stacks were 300BBs?

Given the range of possible hands here, I cannot envision a situation I fold here, hand 1 level 1 of the WSOP main event included.

Thats only 200bbs  :D

The thing is, if the stacks are big enough, there must come a point against a competent player where middle set slows down or at least thinks that bottom and top set are the only possible hands.  Sklanskys argument is (I think)that it must be bad play to be willing to lose all your money to the second nuts and if you have this tendancy it will be exploited.

[/quote]

Given the range of possible hands here, I cannot envision a situation I fold here, hand 1 level 1 of the WSOP main event included.
[/quote]

Thats only 200bbs  :D

The thing is, if the stacks are big enough, there must come a point against a competent player where middle set slows down or at least thinks that bottom and top set are the only possible hands.  Sklanskys argument is (I think)that it must be bad play to be willing to lose all your money to the second nuts and if you have this tendancy it will be exploited.
[/quote]

OK then, hand 1 level 1 of the WPT championship too, thats 500 big blinds   ;ifm;

Other thing is, my argument is it must be bad play to lay down the 2nd nuts to what looks like a hand-protecting bet when there are many hands inferior to yours that make the same bet. If you have this tendency, it too will be exploited.

Sklansky is arguing almost purely from a theoretical persepctive. The conditions he describes for laying down the 2nd nuts are when the bet faced is in the region of 1000BB. Unless you're sitting down at the Bellagio in a 50/100 game with everyone sitting behind six figure stacks, that's not just going to happen in the real world.

I think that he is trying to make a more general point about losing a lot merely based on your analysis of an opponents possible holdings i.e you hold bottom set on an AKx flop after calling a tight players raise.  It is 6/4 you have the best hand if he has AA KK or AK - but with say 200BBs behind, does this analysis change as the action develops?