blonde poker forum

Played last night at Cincins in the 20 pound tourney. Down to 6 left at the final table. Average chip stack about 30K I am at about 55K. Blinds are 1k/2k.
Everyone folds to one off the button who raises up to 6K. He is fairly loose, about 30K in chips, and I put him on AK,AQ, or AJ. I am in the SB and see JJ. Dave Colclough is the BB and is on about 20K and I am afraid of him going all in if I raise and then have the original raiser call. I want to see a flop to see where I stand. I call 6K. Dave also calls. The flop is Q6Q. I bet out 8K. Dave folds and the original raiser goes all in. I think about it and put him on AK or AJ as he wouldnt play AQ like that. I call. He flips over AJ. The turn brings an ace and no help for me from the river.

My question is this. What could I have done to avoid this beat? I have thought about going all in on the flop, but with Dave in the BB I have no idea where he is at, and dont like that play at all. I could have reraised preflop, but I think AJ would have called.

Any suggestions? Cheers.

That should read fairly tight...not loose..sorry :blonde:

You dont want to avoid this beat you had all the chips in the middle and had your foe drawing to an ace on the turn or river. There are not many situations on a FT where you are going to be so far ahead.

You put him on AQ then when he goes allin you change your mind, why?
He reraised your flop bet and you think you are ahead?
I think it's a terrible call on the flop by you, i know you happened to be ahead but still.........
I like your flop bet but any resistance and you should have folded.
Anyway, the only way you win is to force him out preflop or on the flop with an allin, though looking at it he seems to have decided he was sticking 'em allin with this hand anyway.

I thought I was ahead because if he has AQ he flat calls knowing he has the hand pretty much won. Any money I put into the pot after the flop is great for him. If he goes all in and I fold he has only won 14K from me, and not doubled up which is what you would want in that situation.

I know that people are gonna comment and say this is bad, but I am much more scared of a queen on the flop then I am of two queens on the flop.

I can understand what you are saying Cannuk.

But for me, I would rather re raise all in here preflop. If he has QQ KK AA then fairplay.

I would rather go out this way, than to flat call only to see a raggy low flop, commit all ur chips here only to fnd out the guy had a low PP and tripped up on the flop

But from the sounds of it, the guy was willing to stick them all in with AJ anyway so looks like the only way out for you here would be fold preflop.

I wouldn't be disappointed by how you played the hand.  You say how could you avoid this beat.. well the simple answer is why worry about avoiding getting beat when you got all his money in as 82% favourite.

I always say that if you would have played the hand the same way if the cards were face up then you haven't done anything wrong.  Most players at Cincin's think AJ is a monster so reraising preflop is a bit risky as you'll almost certainly be getting a call.  Seeing a flop without an ace on it and then betting out (although your bet out is a bit small imo, but worked perfectly to get him to reraise all in) is the way to play it and thats what you did. 

Don't worry yourself about "avoiding beats".  To win the tournament you need all the chips and you if you get your money in as big favourite in a massive pot you haven't done anything wrong.

I agree with most of what's been said so far. After the flop you played it right and got unlucky. After reading the initial post I thought calling the all-in was a good move. After reading your response to ifm's criticism, I'm now of the opinion it was a great move. Changing your mind because you've gained more info about your opponent's hand shows a quick thinking adaptability that will serve you well in all forms of poker.

My concern is your thought process pre-flop. You seemed more concerned with DC in the big blind than by the tight player who has just raised your blinds. To me you took the one course of action that had the least to recommend it. By calling the raise you gave DC value to call too. If you were so bothered by his presence in the hand the last thing you'd want to do is let him in it and take him on where any pro is most dangerous, post-flop. You had them both covered and you had every right to think you had the best hand. Sounds like an an ideal chance to put all your chips into one teetering pile slide them in the middle and declare "I'm all-in fishies, call me at your peril!"

So I'm with M3 on this one. It's not the most sophisticated move but it would do the job here.

Bob

Ty all who have replied as it has helped me identify some of the complexities of the hand. Upon relflection I think I made the wrong move but did well with my decision (got my money in with the best of it albeit lose the hand)

Originally I was scared if I moved all in that Dave in the BB would call as would the original raiser. My thought process was this. I already gave credit to the original raiser for atleast one over (the ace) and perhaps another (a king). I was worried that Dave would have a hand with atleast one over perhaps a queen giving my jacks a lot of trouble (2-3 overs) with 5 cards to come (if we all go all in) rather then 3 (just seeing the flop after calls all around) or perhaps a drawing hand such as 45, 56, 67, or 89 which he may view as good value knowing he is behind but has a good chance to improve after thinking myself and the original raiser both have high cards.

After thinking about this hand all day (yes I know sad but true, valentines day ang all I am thinking about is a hand) and looking at M3Boy and Bobwah's comments I believe that because the original raiser only raised 6K (3x the BB) and with about 24K left he may have folded preflop if I went all in. His raise was so small that Dave in the BB would call 6K with anything in a 3 way pot to see the flop and possibly get paid. Looking back, I was wrong to think Dave would go all in with a sub-premium hand simply because it was a 3 way pot. Especially as the original raiser was to act after him.

If I go all in and Dave folds, the original raiser has a tough desicion. I see AJ as a going all in hand, but not a hand to call an all in. He may have passed, maybe he calls. The only thing that makes me think he calls is the fact he went all in on top of my raise after the flop with nothing anyway, giving me credit for nothing as well.

I would love to play the hand again knowing what I know now simply to see if I could have won doing something else. Bobwah you are right in your comment that I gave DC too much credit in the BB and that was simply me being totally in the dark about his hand contrasted by an excellent read I had on the raiser.

   

I just need to say that i believe this is place to put hand histories FOR criticism, i mean nothing personally or think i'm even right in what i say.
I just look at these things and ask questions at every stage, answer my own questions, and decide what is the best course.
My opinion is exactly that be it right or wrong, this a great learning tool for us all not just the original poster.

You do seem far too terrified of Dave C to be fair.  Did he have a big fat grin on his face or was he jumping up and down on his seat?  Do you realise the odds of a blind hand being better than JJ here? :D

allin preflop is not the play- so it was 1k 2k blinds with a raise to 6k, and u have 55k and he has 30k. the thing id say tho is some players in cincins are a bit trigger happy, and if u reraise preflop he will set in, which id say u dont want to do. i like your play on the flop, tho u had a tough one with his re raise. but looks like u got it spot on.

ifm, Thank you for your responses. I dont want you to think I was being rude or disrepectful in my post after yours.

I learn a lot more about poker when people take the time to respond to my threads rather then just say terrible move to their computer screen and move on. This is poker, I dont take it personally. I want to get better, and that doesn't happen if all I ever hear is great play or great move.

I like the way you played it, I would play it the same way.  If he wasnt folding on that flop with AJ he wasnt folding pre flop.

M3 said push allin preflop and if he has aces kings or queens then fair play, which is a fair point but not being disrespectful there are a lot of inexperinced players who dont grasp the fact that AJ isnt a great hand.

Why take away ur edge by giving weaker players 5050 shots (I know thats not the case this time but it could have been).

One other comment, which I dont think has been made.  if you reraise all in preflop, and the AJ man calls, then dave is unlikely to also call unless he has a monster as he'll gain a position if the AJ guy gets knocked out.  Dave was small stack and may have been more happy to progress a position without risking elimination against two all ins with something like AQ.  So all in preflop IMO is the right move, and if either of the players has QQ/KK/AA then tough luck, but it's pretty unlikely, and they'd probably slow play KK or AA this late in tourney with 6 players and big blinds.  The worst you'll be is a coin flip in most situations.  If they both call and you lose, you're still average stacked, but if you win, you're massive chip leader with 4 players left.... I think all in is a +ve EV play.

ifm, it wasn't your criticism of the play I had an issue with, it was the way you phrased it. For a place full of sunshine and smiles (yeah I'm talking about the Blonde Forum) the words "terrible call" were harsh and unjustified. As far as your play goes it looks as though you'd be the only player on this thread to get away form the hand with most of your stack in tact.

I think the case for all-in has already been beautifully made by us chuck-it-all-in merchants by rivered, M3boy and myself, so I just have one niggly issue with the case for the other side.

It seems to be common opinion that AJ can't be moved from this pot and is going to get all his chips in regardless. Well that's not really how I read the hand. Canuck bet into the flop with a sort of tickly bet which induced a bluff from his opponent. Using my expert powers of deduction (sarcasm) I reckon he was trying to represent a Q. Had Canuck or DC moved all-in before him I'm pretty sure he'd have laid down the hand as there was no chance to win the pot without a showdown. Canuck's bet opened the door for AJ to make a last ditch attempt to steal the pot.

I'm not saying Canuck should've moved all-in on the flop (you all know the point in the hand where I would've pushed) as that could've been suicidal with the paired board. I'm suggesting that perhaps the player isn't as big a fish as it seems and may lay down AJ pre-flop to the re-raise, because the rest of the hand gives no genuine evidence that he won't. He made the last six of this tourney, maybe he's actually quite good. No, that's just silly talk.

Ok phrasing aside, would anyone else have called the allin?
Most advocate allin preflop but that is not what happened, given the way the hand went would you call the huge bet for most of your chips with a paired board having put him on a possible queen preflop?

I never would have led out, it makes it hard for anyone to put money in with a worse hand, 90% of the time hands lik AK AJ get away from us because of the bet, and hads lik 73 which may have been stealing the blinds are away aswell. This flop is a deffo check.

If i had bet it and then been raised i.....well i dont know what i would do as i would never lead out.

Glad to see this hand is getting a lot of attention as I have done plenty of thinking on it and this thread has helped greatly.

Royal Flush, I see why you would not lead out, but I was simply hoping to take the hand there. If I see a small bet at me from the original rasier, I am very very cautious, proabably folding. I had hoped that would do the same for me, a small bet that looks suspicious and he folds.

If I check the flop, as does Dave and the original raiser, I am folding to any bet after the ace on the turn 110% of the time. Perhaps if I bet more on the flop, maybe 14K he thinks more about folding as I am obviously pot committed.

Frustrating game this poker......why do I love it so much?

why not check raise the original raiser?

I thought of that, but there is no guaruntee he bets and the turn brings his ace. I save a lot of money but still dont win the hand.

A good thought though

against your typical opponent, I think its a pretty easy call. I put one down in the 'call' camp. Its like the game of chicken.. the original raiser doesn't think our hero leads out with the Q, and the OP doesn't think the villain jams with a Q. Naturally, its possible that they do, but in the world of slowplay, it doesn't happen *that* often.

I like leading when its three way... the problem  I see with check-raising is that DC hand is still hidden.. button bets, you jam, and Dave insta calls you are almost dead. If you lead, Dave raises, and button jams, you are almost dead. Leading lets you find that out before your stack is in the middle, not after. Its certainly not a *deffo* check.  HU it would be closer to a *deffo* check, but there is a lot to be said for inducing the re-bluff by leading here.


Secondly if his range is AK--AJ.. the fact that there are 2 Queens on the flop makes it less likely that said villain has AQ, although that doesn't help us too much after he has jammed.

Right so you lead and Dave moves in, he started with 20k, put 6k in pre flop, then moves on the flop after u lead for 8k. How exactly are you going to fold for 6k more?

I agree if DC had more chips then a lead is the better move, but the check raise is the optimal move here IMO

The danger with check raising here, is that you are giving your opponent the chance to "all in" first.

Would you call then?!? - Probably not.

This is such a difficult hand to play post flop (with that flop and on many other flops) - get it all in preflop. This way you will never be folding the winning hand

Of course you would. You are behind to 2 hands that move in here, AA and KK.



Same goes for 22, always push!