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While watching the Skeleton tonight. I was flicking through ceefax. I had not seen any papers for a few days, so was not up to date on the current sports news.

One story which caught my attention concerned snooker player Quinten Hann. For those who don't follow snooker, Hann is an Australian with a incredible natural talent. However he also falls into the category of flawed genius.

Hann was banned today after being found guilty by the sports governing body of match fixing. As well as a £10,000 fine, Hann will not be allowed to play for 8 years. This all dates back a few years to the China Open where Hann is accused of taking a £50,000 bribe to throw a match.

Although Hann announced his retirement from the game on Tuesday. Many insiders thought this was more of his sometimes erratic behaviour. In his time as a pro, Hann showed up for matches with a hangover, challenged his opponents to fights( Andy Hicks in 2004) and conceded one frame with 13 reds left on the table.

Untill being banned, Hann was ranked number 22 in the World. At one time he was a top 16 player. Ronnie O'Sullivan, possibly the sports greatest ever player has claimed on more than one occasion Hann could be a top 6 player if he dedicated himself. Outside of snooker, Hann has had an equally eventful time. In 2002, he was cleared of rape and again in 2005 he was cleared of sexual assault.

Hann made his first centuary aged 13 on Aussie television, was the under 21 World Champion and won the World Eight-Ball Pool championship in 1999. Now at 27 years old, his career is over. It is a sad thing to see someone with his level of ability flush it down the drain.

Of course there are many other people with immense natural abilities who waste it. The most obvious of these is George Best. Other sports personalities who failed to make the most of their ability include Paul Gascoigne, Maradona, Alex Higgins, Mike Tyson and Marco Pantani. 1997 Tour de France winner Jan Ullrich almost joined this list. Fortunately for cycling, Ullrich has managed to put his troubles behind him. He is my pick for the Tour in July.

It always saddens me to see these gifted individuals waste a talent such as the one they hold. Only certain people in life are given sporting gifts. Others have to work their socks off the achieve success. As a kid, I used to think to myself all the time what it would be like to be a sporting hero. Back in those days, I was equally drawn in by the fame and fortune. Now for me the thought of being a champion overtakes everything else. I am sure on this forum everyone of us have thought about winning a WPT or W.S.O.P event. Who cares about the money, it is the chance to call yourself a champion that is the thing we try and improve our games to achieve.Money will come and go, but being a champion will be in the record books forever.  People like Hann have blown this oppertunity. An oppertunity he held within his grasp.

I hope gifted people such as Hann, can learn to live with the choices he made twenty years from now.

If you are looking for an example from the poker world, the Nolan Dalla book about Stuey Ungar is mindblowing.

The guy obviously had unbelievable talent, but such an appalling self destructive streak. It's well worth a read!

A lot of people say that Stu Ungar was the greatest cardplayer ever to grace earth.

With all due respect calling Hann a genius is overstating it slightly

The Ungar book is a great read

Quinten Hann does have natural talent. Just look at some of his performances. He turns up at events unprepared and beats top 16 players.

Its funny you should mention the Stu Unger book. A friend is giving it to me on monday to borrow.

Did mike tyson fail to achieve? Maradona single handedly won a world cup? George best didn't have a bad run.

They sould've achieved more. Maradona was banned twice for Cociane abuse missing 4 years of his career. Tyson was convicted of Rape and missed out on 4 years of his career. George Best retired at 27 a good 5-7 years before he should have.

True, however what they achieved could have been so much more.

I am sure when you play poker and win. You never leave a game thinking ' Wow I played well tonight'. I am sure you think ' Wow...I played well tonight...but I could have played absolutely fantastic'. I know I do. Then you go away and try and work out how to make this come true next time.

Multiply this by the level at which these people perform. Ok, tyson was World Champ, Maradona won a world cup. But they could have dominated and ruled their sports like gods. Instead they are remembered for the negative aspects of their careers as well as the positive aspects.

As was mentioned Stu Unger was a great player. He won three world series titles. Why just three?....
I think I am correct in saying he went through a period of about ten years where he didn't play at the W.S.O.P. These were wasted years.

lol..you beat me to it Nemesis

In my eyes Maradona is the greatest footballer to ever live and Tyson is the 2nd best Heavyweight of all time. They both did dominate their sports and they are look at by some to be sporting "Gods".

LOL @ Tyson 2nd best heavyweight of all time :D
Didn't Stu Unger have to pay all his winnings to debtors (some have said the mob)?

I agree Tyson was one of the best. Probably top five. However, Lennox Lewis won alot more than he did.

Its sad to see a guy with all that talent having to referee a WWF wresting match to earn cash. Ok, they proabaly made it worth his while. But he has earned and estimated $300 million throughout his career. Now he is bankrupt.

$300 millions sounds nice, but to me what sounds nicer is the title of the greatest boxer to ever live. Unfortunately he blew this oppertunity and instead will now be regarded as one of the best.

Sark, I didnt say he did not have natural talent I am merely disagreeing with you labeling him a genius when he is clearly not.

The tag genius gets bandied about all to readily IMO & beating some of the top 16 on todays snooker circuit dose not make you a genius.  :)up

Ok, my mistake.  :D

can we get a 'handbags at dawn' icon, ironside?

lmao

 :D  .. No, Teacake is correct. I misunderstood natural talent with Genius.  Today it is easy to get the two mixed up.

However there are countless cases of unfulfilled potential in people.  I remember an ex F1 driver called Jan Magnasun. Before he came to F1 he had won everything and was tipped to be the finest driver since Ayrton Senna. However within a season and a half after reaching F1 he was sacked and disapeared from single seaters.  In my eyes he is still a genius behind the wheel, however on this occasion it was an unfulfilled talent. Just like Quinten Hann has.

Who do you think is the second best Heavyweight of all time IFM? In his prime, Tyson would have destroyed any Heavyweight.

Buster Douglas beat him "in his prime".

85-89

What was your highest break axxeman?

mine would be:-

Muhammed Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes
Jack Dempsey

Then either Lewis, Tyson or Holyfield

Tyson was so explosive in his prime. He would have inialated Louis, Homes and Dempsey. Maybe even Ali  ;scarymoment;

LOL, you'd be hard pressed to find someone to agree with that!!
I think if Tyson had stayed with Kevin Rooney i feel he could have fulfilled his POTENTIAL to be the very best.

I have Ali and Louis both as number 1 BTW.

Boxrec all time Heavyweights Nation Points Career span Record (W-L-D)


1      Ezzard Charles     US American    1,726    1940 - 1959     88-25-1     
               
 2      Joe Louis    US American    1,708    1934 - 1951     68-3-0     
               
 3      Muhammad Ali    US American    1,680    1960 - 1981     56-5-0     
               
 4      Jimmy Bivins    US American    1,651    1940 - 1955     86-25-1     
               
 5      Floyd Patterson    US American    1,646    1952 - 1972     55-8-1     
               
 6      Rocky Marciano    US American    1,619    1947 - 1955     49-0-0     
               
 7      Sonny Liston    US American    1,598    1953 - 1970     50-4-0     
               
 8      Jersey Joe Walcott    US American    1,598    1930 - 1953     51-18-2     
               
 9      Evander Holyfield    US American    1,597    1984 - 2004     38-8-2     
               
 10      Larry Holmes    US American    1,577    1973 - 2002     69-6-0     
               
 11      Mike Tyson    US American    1,570    1985 - 2005     50-6-0     
               
 12      George Foreman    US American    1,569    1969 - 1997     76-5-0     
               
 13      Eddie Machen    US American    1,555    1955 - 1967     50-11-3     
               
 14      Joe Frazier    US American    1,544    1965 - 1981     32-4-1     
               
 15      Lennox Lewis    British    1,541    1989 - 2003     41-2-1     
               
 16      Michael Spinks    US American    1,539    1977 - 1988     31-1-0     
               
 17      Max Schmeling    German    1,538    1924 - 1948     56-10-4     
               
 18      Lee Q Murray    US American    1,530    1939 - 1952     60-17-3     
               
 19      Primo Carnera    Italian    1,530    1928 - 1946     88-15-0     
               
 20      Bob Pastor                        1,522    1935 - 1942     53-7-5

Sark, hope you're right about Ullrich in July but I fear his time has passed, although he would certainly have won the Tour more often if it hadn't been for the criminally overrated Lance Armstrong. He just doesn't have it in the mountains anymore, and with guys like Basso, Valverde and Cunego coming through . . . I just don't know. I'd love to see him do it though. Nice to see Marco Pantani getting a mention on the board (that's him in my avatar). Definitely qualifies as a genius, flawed or otherwise. Used to really enjoy watching him tear A********'s legs off in the Alps. As for Tyson, I might put him in the top eight but only if I'd had a lot of red wine and was feeling all lovely and generous.

I am not going to try and argue my point with you, Nemesis. It is obvious you are more of an expert on boxing than I am. I admit to not seeing much of Tyson when he was in his prime,  however I did see the Buster Douglas fight on TV when I was nine years old. After doing a brief search on google and from what I have heard people say about Tyson at 21 years old. You are possibly correct when you say he is a sporting God. However all the crazy things he has done in his life must have had an adverse effect on his performances.

What do you think of the Prince Naz comeback in summer, Nemesis?

It is good you are not bitter Axe, I don't think you wasted your time. How can it be a waste of time doing something you totally love or did love.
127 is an impressive break.... :)up

I just have a feeling about Ullrich for the Tour, Graeme. I know Armstrong has said that Ullrich will win by five minutes, but I think that is just mind games. Although he is no longer competing, he is obviously still attached to ex-team members and will be working on preparing them pyschologically for the three weeks in July. Putting the presure on Ullrich is one way to do this.

Pantani is one of the sadest cases of unfulfilled talent, his wins in the Giro and Tour in 98 could have just been the start. I think I am correct in saying it was the 99 Giro when the problems started for him. Wasn't he the leader and then failed a drugs test? . I am not at all sympathetic towards David Miller. He will also be at the Tour in July. I read during his ban he organised a book deal for £1 million. That doesn't seem fair to me.

Although Armstrong was a specialist of one race, the Tour. For me he is my favorite, he had ability, heart and was a true Gent on the bike.

I agree with Sark in that you didn't waste yer time Axxe.

If you folded you never would have known what the turn and river might have brought. You certainly had the pot odds to keep playing snooker, and if you enjoyed it and have happy memories then it's not a waste at all. I bet your 8-times table is spot on.

Plus, I'm sure you've got some white referee gloves in a cupboard somewhere. They're quite funky. If you combined them with a stripy jumper, you could pretend you're trapped inside an invisible box on a Saturday afternoon in a shopping centre somewhere (that might be a waste)

Where's Bruno on the list Nemesis?

"Know what I mean 'arry" should get him extra points.

i think valverde will finish on podium in paris this year and if he progresses he should win the year after and could possibly win for years to come

ulrich barring injuries will put up a good show and if he gets the support of telekom could win it but getting the support of telekom is not a certainty as they have other irons in there fire

Bruno? your kidding, he lacked the hard edge. I think Tyson at his prime was an animal he hit people like he wanted to kill them.
I've never seen or think we will see again a fighter hit that hard.

Do these flawed 'geniuses' apear flawed because we expect too much of them?

tyson should of been the best there was there best there is and teh best there every will be he was a natraul unfortunately he got involved with the wrong people and they were unable to keep his aggression in the ring this left him falling short of a career that could of been so much better

Telekom are such a strong team. As well as Ullrich they have Oscar Sevila, Michael Rogers and Andreas Kloden. But they have lost Zabel and Vonokourov for this years tour.

....and is genius a term loosely banded around where people have documented flaws.


Yeah, I was joking about Bruno. I don't even like HP sace. He's a cracking Widow Twanky though.

What is a Widow Twanky?... is that a Aberdeen saying?

I disagree about HP. Pepper and HP rule as far as I am concerned. My sister took four bottles back to the States last time she visited before Christmas. They can't get it in the US. It is a crappy fake type of HP and tastes bad apparently

Widow Twanky is Aladdin's mum in panto.



I guess they call it Pentagon Preserve over there.

Naz was a good fighter, the boxing equivalent of David Beckham. He was good, but not great. He had one great fight, against Barerra (who coincidentally is a true great boxer) and he got totally outclassed.

But saying that, Boxrec has Naz as the 2 greatest Featherweight of all time. But if you put him with the best Super Featherweights of all time, I wouldn't even put him in the top 10.

The problem with Prince Naseem is that, for the majority of his career, he was shielded from the really good fighters. A succession of nobodies were lined up for Naz to smash up in two minutes live on Sky to keep the TV people happy. Naz never had to take a punch because the other guys weren't good enough to hit him.

When it he finally fought Barerra (who, as Nemesis says, really is one of the best there is) Naz got hit. Hard. Really, really hard. Used to winning fights inside a few rounds with no real problems, Naz had to endure twelve rounds of pummeling. For the first time, Hamed knew what it was like to get a battering in the ring.

I think that his subsequent walking away from the game was simply because Hamed didn't want to get hurt, and was shattered by the revealation that, not only was he not the best fighter in his division, he was quite a way short of being the best. To get to the top would require lots of work, effort and sacrifice. He probably looked at his £20 million quid in the bank and thought "Sod that".

Yea, but he is coming back. That shows alot of heart. I hope he is a success in the same way that Martina Hingis was at the Aussie Open recently. I was pleased she came back as well, mainly for her tennis skills and partly because I have always found her attractive  :D

Alot of people used to say " Just you wait untill Naz gets hit....it will be different then". During the Barerra fight, I sat there with all of Naz's critics in the local pub. At that point I didn't realise he was so disliked. Most of the younger people supported Naz and the slightly older people could see the weaknesses in his game.

I remember the documentary about Naz a few years ago. Up untill then I liked him. But after this all my respect disapeared.  He acted like a spoilt brat in this documentary criticising his opponents and complaining about his hotel room. The hotel room was in Vegas I think. It was a hotel room that for anyone else would have been a dream, but Naz wanted a different colour of wallpaper or something silly like that. That sort of behaviour is not something his fans like to see. I hope he is more of a Gent like Ricky Hatton is when he returns in Summer.

Losing those big riders will help Ullrich IMHO. Telecom now have a clear team leader, which they've never had before. None of the top guys were willing to ride for each other and they actually helped the other teams, especially A*******g and Discovery, by chasing breaks when they should have been slowing their rivals down. Like I said, I really hope Ullrich does it - he's easily the most talented rider around right now - but his temperament is suspect and if he takes a good kicking and loses time in the second week he might not be strong enough to make it back. Ullrich, Valverde, Basso would be my perfect 1-2-3 but my head says Basso, Valverde, Ullrich. Sark: I have some sympathy for Millar but I know what you mean. He's lucky the new doping rules came in just after he was banned so he was able to ride for a big team when his suspension ended, which is not the case anymore. Pantani was booted out of the Giro in 99 for having a high haematocrit count, which organisers said was evidence of doping but is actually proof of any number of things. Poor old Marco's persecution complex got the better of him, he went into a tailspin and we know the rest. We'll have to agree to disagree about 'The American'. The way he chased down Simeoni a couple of years ago was a disgrace and he's lucky he was riding against a bunch of cowards who in the last four Tours have hardly turned a pedal against him. Mercxx, Hinault or even our own Robert Millar would have eaten him alive. Boorish, disrespectful, ignorant and very probably a cheat.

Naz has got a lot of work to do if he is serious about getting back in the ring. Saw a picture of him leaving court a couple of weeks ago and all I can say is, "Who ate all the pie shops?"

I didn't realise about the new doping rules, Graeme. That should make people think twice about cheating.

I remember the Simeoni incident. But wasn't there a war or words going on between the two before that. I read an interview with simoni where he said Armstrong was a 'one race man'. This was probably the reason for his behaviour in that particular stage. Had it been any other rider, I don't think Armstrong would have done that. Maybey I am wrong though.

I haven't seen any pics of Naz for a while. Shouldn't take him long to get back in shape. He will have a good team behind him.

Takes most boxers 6-9 weeks to get into fighting shape, even if they've eaten a couple of pie shops.

How long was Rocky in Russia for before fighting Ivan Drago?

37.5 minutes

Now thats class. "If he dies....he dies"

Gotta love the message of Rocky V. Solve all your problems with a street fight kids.

I just want to say  :goodpost: to Sark and Axxe

I think sarks post made some excellent points and was a very entertaning and informative read

I too thought I might become a pro snooker player and dedicated myself to it for many years, I even managed to support myself playing cash games for about a year, but eventually I realised that I would never be good enough, the standard was just too high

I have no regrets though, I enjoyed every minute

Cheers RED,

Have you read Jimmy Whites biography, Red-Dog?

there are some really entertaining stories in it about his cash playing days. He talks about his time being driven around London playing cash games as a kid. There are some really amusing characters in the book which he mentions, Alex Higgins, Tony Meo(sp?) and Dodgy Bob.

If you haven't seen it, I recomend it. You could probably identify with some of his stories from you snooker days. Axe would as well, I am sure.

100 breaks with a walking stick is one story he tells. It is a great book

Yes, I've read it, have you read Cliff Thorburn's?

No, i have read O'sullivans, Hendry and Higgins biogs but not cliff thorburn. I normally pick them up at my local PDSA, it has alot of good sports biogs.

Is it any good?

I loved it

He tells of his days playing the circuit in Canada.  One day in a brief three hour stop-over on his way to Vancouver, he called in to a local snooker club and got involved in a cash game with a deaf Indian who got very lucky against him and won a set 2/1

He wanted a chance to get even but was running out of time, so he sugested they start with fewer reds

Cliff:  let's play with less red balls

Indian:  What?

Cliff:  Less red balls

Indian:  What?

Cliff:  LESS RED BALLS!!!

Indian:  Les Red Balls? Never heard of him, but if you bring him I'll beat him too

sounds good. I will keep a look out for it. Thanks

I used to play snooker in Tooting, well Wandsworth actually where Jimmy White and Tony Meo amongst others used to play.

Bob Davies used to back the young players in those days and they were known as "Bob's boys".

Jimmy would have been 15/16 then. Steve Ventham was another great young player who was around at that time.