blonde poker forum

Please confirm this for me, I was playing tonight and I was accused of "pulling a stroke" and told If i had acted in such a way in a cash game I would have been on the wrong end of a severe kicking.

So I am in the BB with  Jh 4h Blinds are 600 / 1200 my stack is 57K or the 180K in play

UTG raises to 2400 to go

All fold to me, I call ( its loose i know, but so is the raiser )

flop   Qh Js 6h

I check

BB goes 5K

I move all in, I figure he has a queen, but i wanna see if I can get him off it. he only has 17K more.

He calls and shows  Ks Qs

Turn is  2h

Who cares about the river happy days are here again.

Now at this point i was accused of pulling a stroke for giving it a bit of hollywood on the check raise all in.

What I did was sighed, worked out my odds and then pushed, it lasted about 90 seconds tops.

now you tell me


WHAT DID I DO WRONG???  OR do some people class this as cheating?

This is interesting. If you had sighed and given the hollywood handsigns with me I would be very cautious about calling you.

However, in terms of etiquette, I can see no problem here, he's min raised and you've flopped a monster. If you decide to act (unconvincingly IMHO lol) and he goes for it, that's his problem. 14 outs going to the river? For once you're correct to come over the top!

Anyone describes a wee bit of hesitation as cheating, they should stick with the game ad infinitum. To describe playacting as cheating is frankly moronic in my opinion.

I remember I did this one of the first times I played at the riverboat.  I flopped the nut flush and raised a guy all in after thinking for a while, trying to appear unsure.  He made a bad call with mid pair or something then went mental at me, threats of violence and everything.  Now I was quite intimidated at the time as I hadn't really played live before, nowadays I would tell them where to go.

What do they want you to do when you flop a monster?  Get on the chair and dance a little jig while nochalantly throwing all your chips in the middle?

Perfectly acceptable, ;)  get it quietly though  ;goodvevil;

That's not a stroke, that's poker.

It's pretty much 50:50 when the chips go in here.

If you were "pulling a stroke" to encourage a call, it would have been a pretty pointless one. As you said yourself you wanted to get him off his queen. You do ok if he calls, but would prefer to take down 10k uncontested.

as a cardroom supervisor you have done nothing wrong. I would be more inclined to have a word with the other player about bad etiquete and possibly bar him for threatening behavior.

Who was the accuser newmans?

been there got the T-Shirt. the chap in question is referring to the moody rule - and it depends where you play to whether they enforce it. it is very much a british thing - the americans wouldn't dream of such a rule. when playing live a good idea to check on the rules prior to playing. local rules can be a real pain - i remember a well documented incident with Carlo Citrone a few years back in Dundee. he was penalised and lambasted for check raising the nuts - 'which was against their rules'.

this debate has been going on for years - with the poker boom i fear it is further from resolution than it has ever been.

Not a problem, you are allowed to project any kind of body language.  It is not cheating.

if projecting am image is cheating then using tells would have to be, This reduces the game to pure no's

I say it's absolute nonsense. This kind of thing is what makes poker fun. The situation can be explained in two words: sore loser.

It's really just a case of the sucker realising he's the sucker and being totally embarrased, great play wd :D :D

Why is he playing poker? Deception in poker is out of order????????????

You played great.

Don't i remember something about barry greenstein getting the hump with Aces trumper over something similar?

Funilly enough we have similar local rules where i play - we dont penalise players for check raising the nuts but here we have rules like:

If the monkey has the worst hand at showdown, he wins anyway.
If the monkey has the best hand at showdown, he wins obviously.
If the monkey passes before showdown but had money in the pot he is entitled to take 50% of the pot from the winner of the hand.

I wonder why poker hasnt really taken off in the jungle, best bet is i still struggle to win!!!

Though i must stop playing with the cheetahs!!!  :D

He was one one of the punters from the riverboat.  What really annoyed me was the accusation of cheating, I took great offence at this especialy from a player not in the hand.


Cheers for the replys guys, glad to see it was not me, I just could not understand how check raising the flush draw was cheating.


thanks again

Billy

 Maybe in a bar in 1960's texas playing 5 stud i could understand this but not in the 21st century in a modern casino its just ridiculous. What you did is part and parcel of poker and if the guy doesnt understand that he is as well sticking to blackjack.

This is no different in "over betting" a pot with a HUGE all in when you have the nuts - cos now and again SOMEONE will call as you are not supposed to bet in this way with the nuts.

Sticky Beak he is!  ;goodvevil;

whats really annoying about it is that it wasnt someone in the hand who was doing the complaining.

the whole object of poker is to get the maximum payoff for a hand. that is where the skill lies.

If it was from a player not involved in the hand, then it was from a player still in the tournament.

Perhaps he was playing his own game, trying to put the chip leader newmanseye off his stride by lambasting him till he felt the need to explain his actions.

Didn't work, Billy's the champ  ;tightend;

Nothing wrong here at all m8 except him accusing you of cheating.

Was the accuser half cut?
Just to get the facts right; opponent bets pre-flop with JQ, one caller, was you who had Jh 4h. Correct so far?
Flop comes Q J somthing. 2 Hearts! Hes 1st to act and raises, you mull over the decision and decide 2 reraise all-in with middle pair and the flush draw. Sure enough hes got the Q. On the turn a Heart comes! At this point you get accused of cheating by trying to induce a call! When you tried to induce a call, allegedly, you suspected you were behind and you were right! At this point (after the flop) I think the opponent is the marginal favourite (forgive me if I'm wrong, odds knowledge somewhat suspect)! And you were accused of cheating!
To make matters worse the accuser wasn't even involved in the hand. It's laughable really! He/she was obviously half cut and/or a diddy! You were perfectly correct and you were the one stackin the chips!

The title of this post is "Was I cheating or Not"

ABSOLUTELY NOT - never in a million years

I think it is ballsy and risky play by you on a semi-bluff which we all do. 

He didnt have to call - its not like he had the nuts and as someone said with 9 hearts, 3 jacks, and 3 4's you are both 50-50 to win at this point.

Nice play and if someone played it on me even with the dwell i would say well played and good luck....

I hope you told him where to go.  Honestly some of the crap people come out with is unreal.

NOT cheating, just playing poker properly.

Checking the nuts on the river when last to speak IS cheating, & I see that often enough. Thats a different kettle of fish entirely.

Check-raising with the nuts? Happy Days!

Here's what barry said.



"I'm fourth in chips with about $45,000 or so,'' Greenstein begins. "I hadn't been raising that many hands before the flop, and I picked up K-K-J-10, spades and clubs. A couple people limped in and I raised the pot to make it $1,650. Two people called, so the pot was a little over $5,000. I got a good flop: Q-J-6 with two spades, so I had an overpair, straight draw and the second-nut flush draw. I bet $4,500, almost the size of the pot. One guy called, Simon Trumper. Now the pot is a little under $15,000.

"The turn is the ace of clubs, which gives me the nuts and the second-nut flush draw. I don't know if he's flopped a set. He checked to me on the button, and I bet $12,000. He thought for 10 seconds and called. So, at this point, he's supposed to have either the nut-flush draw or some straight draws. He doesn't know I have the absolute nuts, so he might think his straight draws are good. He probably thinks I have a set of aces or queens, unless he somehow has them.

"Whatever his call is, he's probably not getting the right odds. He doesn't know I have the nuts. If he has a spade draw, I have two spades out of the deck. If he has a set, I've got one of the cards. He's probably not getting full odds for his call.

"I'm hoping for a small red card that doesn't pair. But a spade comes off (on the river). Now I'm afraid he's going to bet into me if he has the nut-flush draw. But he checks. Now, my question is, should I turn over the second nuts or should I bet it? It might be right to turn it over. It's a real big pot. At this point there's $39,000 in the pot, and I've only got about $27,000 left. So, I said I'll make a big enough bet so that if he raises, he'd almost have to have the nuts. So, I grabbed some chips and bet $17,500.

"And he went in the tank - this is with less than a half-hour to go in the tournament (for the night) - for way more than five minutes. People are thinking of calling the clock on him. It's the end of the night and people want to play. But he's just sitting there, sitting there, sitting there. I'm being courteous in not calling the clock on him. He's looking at me, he's looking at people. Everyone's waiting for him to act. People want him to do something.

"Finally, after 10 minutes, he says, "OK, I raise.'' My last $8,000 or $9,000. At this point, I'm saying the raise only makes sense if he's got the nuts, because I've represented a strong hand. I thought I was beat, but I looked at what I had left and it wouldn't be much if I fold, and it's going to be a pot of $90,000 or so.''

At this point. Greenstein says he's pretty sure he beaten, but he has a specific reason for not wanting to fold: He wanted to confirm that Trumper would sit there for that long - look, three minutes of indecision at a poker table seems like forever --and waste everyone's time when he was holding the nuts all along and not trying to run a bluff with, say, a lower flush than Greenstein held.

"I said I would hate to condemn someone to be a (naughty word) for taking 10 minutes of everyone's time at the end of the night and somehow be mistaken,'' Greenstein said. "So, I called. Of course he had the nuts.

"That's something that real poker players would never do, because then you get everyone doing stuff like that. It's kind of an accepted thing that you don't cheat, you don't certain things, because if some people do it, then everyone now feels they're forced to combat it by doing the same type of thing. You don't slow-roll because then everyone else slow-rolls.

"But when you play in tournaments, you play with people who really don't have a concept of this. I'm not saying everyone, but a lot of these people. These people should be, frankly, eliminated from the sport, so we would have a cleaner sport. People like this shouldn't be allowed to play. That's how severe it is. These are the same types of people who, when they go to a new table and see it's their big blind, they walk to a different table so they don't have to take the big blind. It's this type of behavior that, frankly, shouldn't be allowed. These people aren't real poker players, is all I can say about it. Very irritating to deal with people like that.

"I got up and left. Everyone at the table looked at me like they knew what a jerk he was. Now, when I talk to people - I'm letting people know this is what this guy does; it's important to get the word out when people do stuff like this - and what I've gotten from people is, 'Everyone knows he's a (naughty word). You just didn't know.' His name is Simon 'Aces' Trumper and apparently he has a website.

"Ten minutes isn't what was necessary. He could've taken 15 seconds to give a hint of doubt to me about whether he did have the nuts. There's poker; I understand it. But there's a certain amount of time that's right and certain amount of time that's wrong. No good players would ever do anything like this.''

But wait. It gets worse.

"Even when he turned his hand over,'' Greenstein said, "he turned over the 8 of spades, and then the ace of spades. He slow-rolled his hand.''

Greenstein was so worked up a day later, poker pro Thor Hansen said, that he marched over the to area where Trumper was playing the in the Pot Limit Omaha event and told him to his face that he should be thrown out.

"I've known Barry 11 years,'' Hansen said, "and I've never seen him like that.''

there wasa lot of fuss at the time over this but in subsequent days many players present said trumper took nothing like 10 mins. The many views i saw reckoned trumper took no more than 3 mins just enough to get greenstien to pay him off.

I think Greenstein was more upset as himself than anything else. He knew he would not be raised without the nuts, yet he payed Simon off anyway.

His anger just manifested itself in ill feelings towards ACES.

no you wasnt cheating ,you just ran into a bad loser.

Ummm i did this with a st8 flush yesterday... the board paired on the flop and I made my st8 on the turn and caught my flush on the river... I missed that the river made my st8 flsh... that what playing 2k hands a day does sometime.   :(