blonde poker forum

do I push ;goodluck; or just call like a wimp

50p/£1   hi/lo
I am on the button with about $200  and have been playing about about 30 minutes.

there are 4 limpers when the player to my right makes it $6 to go I call with  Aspades Qs Qd 2d. The blinds fold and all the limpers call.

Flop  Qh 9c 3c  ;karabiner;   
UTG bets $10  now it gets interesting everybody calls.

I am holding the nuts but there are plenty of cards I don't want to see on the turn

The players left in have between $90 and $130 so if I bet the pot I am commited to call what ever the turn brings.

So should I push now and try and stop the hand or just call and see the turn.

I seem to find myself in this spot on a regular basis playing hi/lo

All comments welcome as long as they don't contain why are you playing hi/lo

Difficult one, you will defo get a caller with a flush draw if you push, as you say you are then comitted.
Personally i prefer to call in this situation and push on a non club turn, though if an ace or king comes a rethink may be necessary :D

 ;iagree;

But how do you play it on the turn if the card is something like  5c ?

Raise the pot, you cant let someone draw for $10, there is enough in the pot for you to take it down now.

You are not a favourite in this pot. (as it is you only have 20 safe cards - an ace and a 5-7 do not break your current board lock unless they are clubs - but they do improve the possible drawing hands out there ).
If you can see the turn/river for cheap and you fill up then fine, but against strong betting you should be folding.

Also I think this is a folding hand preflop, your hand has very little potential apart from the spade draw, you have no straight potential and the diamond draw is a recipe for disaster you are essentially looking for a nonscary board with a queen on it or a spade draw, if the 2d was something like a T/J/K/A it makes the hand playable.

I don't think this is a difficult decision at all.

You need to raise the max possible, if only to push the straight draws off the pot. Who knows, you might even take down the pot there and then!

If you receive a caller, then you've still got a good chance of being ahead on the turn.

If a flush comes, then 'that's poker', but we don't know for sure that he has it. He could be betting with the 4th queen. Plus, you can still reoutdraw a flush with a full house on the river.

And that's not forgetting the backdoor low draw you have to nuts the other half of the pot.

Let's see some testicular fortitude. Push!

How can you fold this hand preflop??

nut low draw
double suited
big pair
straight possibilites on either end

What more do you want?

You've got to push...trips in hi-lo are very vulneralbe and you must protect it now.

a) make any club draw pay the maximum

b) even if the flush hits you have outs to the house

c) two low cards might give you a share of the low

really if you push you should only get called by the nut club draw with a low back up


Push big time!

 ;iagree;

Ok you push, you will get a caller EVERYTIME!!!!
The amount of money you waste with hands like this in hi/lo is rediculous.
Better to get a hand in hi/lo before you commit, trust me over time you will win more than lose.
Otherwise let me know where you play and alias :D

I'd call and try to manage the pot size. There's not just a flush to worry about, but anyone with JT in their hand is a danger too.

Up against someone holding a hand like

Ac Kh Jc Th

you are not in great shape. That might sound like seeing monsters everywhere, but I think it was Cloutier/McEvoy who said something along the lines 'in Omaha, if it's possible, it's probable'.

Also, why push and sacrifice position? If the turn is something innocuous you can then jam. If it's a scare card and there's lots of action before it gets to you, you can get away cheaply.

If it's a scare card and the betting is fairly light, you will probably be priced in to try to fill up on the river.

You've got the nuts. Your opponent will have to pay a poor price to hit his draw.

Flat call here and you're playing passive poker.

like I said, trips are very vulnerable in 4 card games

for vulnerable read horrible!

I push, its the best hand now ("better to get a hand"? I have the best hand), let them invest as much as possible to beat you from behind

i may be wrong, but thats what I would do

I don't lose fortunes playing hilo this way in my local dealers choice game  :D. (Famous last words)


p.s the fact that you have multiple callers before it gets to you might indicate a lot of club draws that aid your chances of not getting outdrawn....

In holdem i agree snippy, hi/lo is a different animal.
With 2 cards to come people will call with all sorts of draws, if you jam here and a club comes you just lost money unnecessarily, better to wait for the turn to make a move.
Just think how many draws are there......................
Div's post is very good.

EDIT for Tighty

Trips ain't a hand in this game mate, you need TOP flush, TOP straight or TOP fully to push.

He has the nuts, but could still be an underdog.

You can't worry about someone holding a monster every time you play a hand.

I'd fold almost every hand otherwise.

Is this a windup thread?

I'm beginning to wonder.  ;karabiner;

If everyone is calling, then the pot is big.

You can bet big to push off all the draws.

If someone does have that 1 specific hand that you have identified, then so be it. You're still in decent shape. There is dead money, you have the chance or reoutdrawing if he hits, plus there's a backdoor low if he flushes up.

I'd move the shortstack in Hi-Lo everytime

POT....enough in the pot to make anyone without a massive draw make an error/ plus the additioanl advantage u may get action off a lower set/ two pair which are the hands you really want to give you action. Your backdoor lo can also get you out of trouble.

Yes! I love you, not in a Brighton sort of way though.

This isn't 'every time you play a hand'.

This is a hand where six people have seen a raised flop, and then four of them have smooth called a 1/3 pot bet on the flop (a bad bet IMHO)

You have to credit some of them with decent hands.

I reckon if the hands were turned over you'd be looking at the nut flush draw, at least one straight draw, maybe a smaller set, an overpair (possibly with a flush draw), and a couple of optimistic backdoor low draws.

If you are really unlucky several of those draws could be in the same hand.

I'd definitely like to see another card fairly cheaply with position here.

but so would they, hence they all call and no raises

STICK IT UP EM, Make life uncomfortable...make them pay to make mistakes

Mistakes?
i give in....................

Actually part of the problem with a board like this IS that other players make mistakes. You want to pot it to offer the big drawing hand 2/1.

The problem is that the guys with smaller sets, overpairs, 2-pair smooth call, and price in the guys with big draws, which makes it very difficult to get rid of them here.

That's why I say take another card.


(PS Off to bed now)

if they call your maximum sized raise with a non nut draw or incorrect odds it is a mistake. If they hit, it doesn't change that.

ps bedtime too

Interesting thread, making me think......(prepared to consider I may be wrong.....)

 

you will nearly always be making money by aiming to get most of your chips in on the flop. The times you run into a massive hand such as TJ AKc and are a dog will be compensated for by the extra pot odd equity u have, the times several people call you with flush draws, the times several people call you wrap draws, the times people call you with middle set, bottom set lalalalallala etc.

Don't call to fold on a dangerous turn card. As has been pointed out this is half the deck.

Sometimes you will lose your stack playing this aggressively. That's fine if you get your chips in in good shape which you will by potting it here. It's a cash game. You aren't aiming to survive, you are in it to make money!

PS tighty, always like your posts. Keep it up ( not in a brighton way)

So we have a str8 draw, nut flush draw, a lower flush draw blocking the nut fd's outs, and a set with 1 out.

Explain to me why we are not shipping it in here?

All of these answers are why i DON'T play Omaha !!!

Scares the life out of me  >:? :o

Nice replies not to sure about folding pre flop though 

I have a nut low, nut flush and straight draws and a high pair not the worst hand I have started with.

With all 5 calling I have to believe that some of them are holding each other’s cards. I certainly don’t want to see the turn five handed as any card above a 7 is going to make me fold unless I fill up. If 1 of them has a monster draw like  Ac  Kh Jc Th  good luck to them.

As I am sure you have all worked out I did push. I was not happy when the 1st player went all-in for $94 was I was worried some off the others would call for there draws with the pot growing.

The rest folded I lost when a  6c came on the turn and player 1 showed  Kc 4c 4d Js


Here is question 2 if you just called the $10 on the flop would you call to see the river. If player 1 bets out $30 and you get 2 callers.

:D

 :-X

:D :D :D

but my point would be without the nut flush draw he shouldn't be calling

He has a non nut draw and a gutshot straight draw


Byeee!!!

My point was simple, you push here you WILL get a caller EVERYTIME, that person will have a flush draw 99.9% of the time and you are only a slight favourite against a flush draw.
I rather see the turn and either get away cheaply or push there, over time i believe it to be a good policy because if you do push on the flop you lose the lot not just some of your stack, there are better oportunities (better drawing hands i mean).

You want this hand to call.

He's clearly a weak player.

If he hits, then so be it.

He put his money in with incorrect odds and a crappy hand. You will make money off these guys.

And how much do you win when he misses his flush? Nowt.

You can't be so negative. It should be about what you can get off these mugs, not what you can lose.

i'm with IFM , i'd flat call, you've only got trips, which is the nuts at that point, but if you push
they're gonna call regardless

see a turn then do it :)

How much? the pot.
Not negative, realistic.
In this particular instance it was a mug, but more often than not you will get multiple callers and you will most certainly be a dog in the hand.
If you push on a horrible flop like this with only trips and no draws against multiple opponents you will lose more in the long run than you win.

Firstly, unlucky! Your opponents choice of starting hand, and willingness to draw to a non-nut hand are both weaknesses.

Secondly, I'd definitely call to see the river in the circumstance you described.

You have 1 out to the mortal nuts (the case queen), nine other outs which will give you an almost certain high (three nines, threes, or sixes - let's not fret too much about quads), and there are 44 unseen cards, giving you roughly 7/2 to hit the high hand and scoop, plus as a parachute sixteen outs (any four, five, seven, or eight) which will get you some share of the pot - though with two callers there's a definite worry about getting quartered or worse.

There's about $38 in the pot pre-flop, $98 if you just call on the flop, and by the time it gets to you on the turn, there's $188 in giving you a very generous 6/1 to hit your 7/2 shot. Also, the pot is so large, you can set all your opponents in if they want to see your cards, so there will be no cash missed on the table.

Of course there's no guarantee that if you'd just called, he'd have underbet the pot when he hit his flush, but I've seen a lot of players do exactly what you described, and when you fill up on the river, they just can't let it go.  8)

Someone wanna post this hand on 2+2?
I bow to the ultimate wisdom.

He's not going to pay you off with pocket fours.

there's already $98 in the pot :)

Snoops I ran the numbers through the Cardplayer O8 calculator and the EV calculations are:

Stage	gooner	villain
Pre Flop	72	28
Flop	68	32
Turn (6 clubs)	42	58
Turn (6 diamonds)	79	21

So if goonner calls on the flop, and sees a good turn card like the six of diamonds, he is in position to push as a 4/1 favourite and there's a good chance that he will get callers. If not, he wins a near 100BB pot with minimal risk.

If he sees a bad turn card like the six of clubs, he is last to act and can make a good decision based on the betting in front, which as previously mentioned, can often still make it a valid call.

he's 11% better off on the turn and less likely to get callers?

I'm confused as to why we wouldn't want to get our money in as a 2:1 favourite?

that makes 2 of us!

Also since when is a set a slight fave over a flush draw!

If you flat call on the flop then yes if the club comes you save chips, but if it does come and he had 99 then u lose all the action for your set, also if the card comes 89JTK you cant be happy, Ace and you dont like it much, any other card puts a low draw out.....

I am curious though to those who say flat call and push a nice turn, what is a nice turn to you in a multiway pot with Q 9 and a low on the board? (excluding the FH which kills your action)

Who posted this darn hand?!?!  :D

He's 11% better off on the turn, and probably almost as likely to get a caller - that's a better situation.


Consider the guys who were willing to call $10 on that flop, but fold to a raise and re-raise. What could they be holding?

It's pretty common to find set over set battles in Omaha. The bet by UTG on the flop is screaming 'big drawing hand'.

If you are in MP and you've flopped middle set, you find yourself thinking 'I'm sure I'm ahead here, but what's behind me?' So you call, to see what happens.

If the guy in last position pots it, and UTG reraises, it's an insta-fold. If it's called all the way around, and the turn is an apparent good card, you are pretty sure you are ahead and are likely to bet or raise, straight into goonner who is sitting with top set.

As an example, lets look at a hand that might call that flop, but will fold to heavy action.

 Jd Ts 9s 9h

for middle set and a straight draw.

Stage	gooner	villain	other guy
Pre Flop	56	22	22
Flop	48	33	19
Turn (6 clubs)	39	58	3
Turn (6 diamonds)	64	21	15

So you give yourself the chance of winning 64% in a 3-way pot by calling the flop and pushing a good turn(but leaving yourself room to manouevre on a bad turn), against 68% in a 2-way pot by pushing the flop and taking all the decision making out of the hand.

You utilise your positional advantage to make better decisions on each round. It's not just about the numbers, it about making better decisions when you have the chance to do so.

Anyway I'm off for a cup of tea. Maybe we should all just have replied 'it depends'  :D

The reason why you should get your chips in is that you are in a favourable situation. Against this guy's hand you are a very solid favourite.

Anyone who doesn't want to take a 70 30 edge in a cash game would have to explain that one to me.

Let's say this doesn't go to plan and you get called by someone with a wrap draw and a flush draw and a backdoor flush draw, say JKc 8Th

I assumed this would be a favourite? Turns out your backdoor lo gives you enough ev to keep you on top.

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1607309
pokenum  -o8 kc jc th 8h  - as qs qd 2d  -- qh 9c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 9c 3c Qh
cards          scoop  HIwin  HIlos  HItie  LOwin  LOlos  LOtie     EV
Kc Jc  Th  8h    334    438    382      0      0      0      0  0.471
As Qs  Qd  2d    382    382    438      0    144      0      0  0.529.

So against the worst possible hand you can be up against, you have superior equity.


What about if you get two callers, one with a big wrap draw another with the nut flush draw, maybe with a pair, and also a backdoor low..

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1607319
pokenum  -o8 ks js td 8d  - as qs qd 2d  - ac 2c 9s 7s  -- qh 9c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 9c 3c Qh
cards          scoop  HIwin  HIlos  HItie  LOwin  LOlos  LOtie     EV
Ks Js  Td  8d    114    150    516      0      0      0      0  0.198
As Qs  Qd  2d    247    313    344      9      0      0    129  0.472
9s 7s  Ac  2c    132    194    463      9     60      0    129  0.330

About as bad shape as you can be in. Some of your equity robbed by the backdoor low, some by the fact that one of your pair up outs is gone but your equity is stilll 50%.

Now u are getting 3 way action as a 50% favourite, another very profitable cash scenario.

These are worst case scenarios. In both of them, you should be happy to get your chips in.

How about when you run into some good situations.

Say two guys with a wrap draw, one also has a flush and the nut flush draw.


http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1607334
pokenum  -o8 kc jc td 7s  - as qs qd 2d  - ac 4c 8s 7c  - th jh jd kh  -- qh 9c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 528 enumerated boards containing 9c 3c Qh
cards          scoop  HIwin  HIlos  HItie  LOwin  LOlos  LOtie     EV
7s Kc  Jc  Td      1      1    430     97      0      0      0  0.082
As Qs  Qd  2d    257    291    237      0    101      0      0  0.585
8s Ac  7c  4c     75    117    411      0     86    101      0  0.230
Jd Kh  Jh  Th      1     22    409     97      0      0      0  0.102

So here you are nearly a 60% favourite in a 4 way pot. Fantastic situation to be in.

There are lots of other scenarios where you will be a big favourite such as when you get called by lower sets, 3 flush draws, 3 wrap draws, plain old open ended straight draws and even hands like 2 pair someitmes. Throw in the folding equity gained from your aggression, and you can see how you jsut have to attack this flop.

Drive the betting now while you are DEFINITELY a favourite as opposed to playing it passively, worrying over a scare turn card, of which there are many and failing to maximise your profit. If you lose you lose. Reload, get your chips into the middle in good shape again. Do it 100 times, you'll be a big winner.

I'd only flat call because trips is not great against flushing or str8 and basically you are looking to pair the board

and also i've pushed with these hands on the flop and been shafted many times by people calling with every draw possible and hitting

My theory is that if you flat call, and hit a blank on the turn, as long as you can bet him off the pot then you could win it on the turn, because unlikely they'll call for 1 card,  but if you push on the flop they will certainly call for 2 cards all their money on the draws

EEK!!!  :o :o :o

The Beagle mind just can't cope with so much information.

Heh! I think there's more to it than just numbers. I was trying to use them to illustrate a point.

If poker was purely about 'I'm 51% to win this, so let's lump it all-in' then the online game probably would be overrun with bots, since it would be pure maths.

It's not a bad decision to play the flop aggressively on this hand (the numbers prove it), but I do think the alternative play minimises loss, and maximises gain which is surely better in the long run - using superior skill to manipulate the numbers to your advantage.

I'm well aware that in cash games you must be prepared to stick all your chips in knowing you are nowhere near certain to win, but are making a long term +EV decision, but just because you are PREPARED to do it, doesn't mean you HAVE to do it every time.

Firstly Bongo, nobody said they wouldn't get their chips in as a 2-1 favourite, if the OP had said "i had 1 caller with this hand, was it a good decision" then we would all agree.
I don't like relying on backdoor LO's and such, i prefer to stick my chips in with a strong made hand and a draw or a strong drawing hand.
Trips are not either, i still flat call..............:D

wow a great thread guys - and I dont even play O hi/lo . Do you still only get 30 secs to act? If so I'm pretty sure I could never get my head around it!

its been one of the best PHA threads ever


and we all still think we are right!!!  :D :D :D

I know i am right actually tighty....

Just like to add my weight to the 'ship it in' brigade. I'll take a caller looking for the nut flush any day versus my top set. If he happens to have wrap outs also then good luck to him. But given the amount of folk who have called the UTG bet, one can safely assume that most of the outs are counterfeitted amongst the collective holdings of the pack.

If they are all maniacs and all call your Pot bet (this is the only way you could consider yourself an underdog upon pushing) then so be it -- you've got a bunch of boat outs anyway.

Just to add my two pence...

I think in practice I would push on the flop also. Almost no matter what combination of cards calls you, you will have enough equity in the pot to make a profit in the long run. For example, if you get called in two spots, you only need a 33% chance to win to break even on the hand, and as JungleCat has shown, your actual chance of winning is much higher than that. There's also the chance that everybody will fold (it really depends on the game), in which case you've achieved your goal of protecting a vulnerable hand.

However there is an argument for flat calling and seeing the turn, which Lyle Berman discusses in the Pot Limit Omaha section of Super System 2. Playing this way reduces your fluctuations, but also reduces your profit (unless you'll get the same amount of action on a blank turn card as you would on the flop - very unlikely).

I think the fact that there is an argument over which play is best shows just how close the two options are.