blonde poker forum

As I mentioned recently, I was driven to write a letter of complaint to Nottingham Gala recently. I'd had a particularly rough night with some of the reoccurring issues and finally got round to putting it in print. I should say I'm grateful Ken Michell, the card room manager took the time to speak to me in persona bout my letter the following Sunday and Chris Maskill the General Manager who did write back. I also have to say however that the responses aren’t very satisfying.

I urge Notts players to read this whole thread and write their own letter.

Here's my letter;

I have been attending your casino primarily as a poker player since January 2004. I have seen a lot of changes both in schedule and Staff in that time but feel I have to write to comment on the current state of affairs. The recently departed Rob had the biggest and most positive effect on the card room of any supervisor in my two years as a player. The schedule became varied with tournaments to suit all pockets. The flatter 30% payout structures were great, especially as they were based on detailed studies he’s carried out having worked out the ACTUAL payout of comps after deals were done. The issue of smoking was starting to be addressed and we got one non-smoking comp a week. Not enough, but a start in the right direction. Start times were also being addressed, as most people would rather start much earlier than 9.15pm.

Now to the criticisms.
Many players don’t stick to the non-smoking policy on Wednesdays. The upper section of the card room is smoked in for most of the night but is not completely blocked off. Also later on in the evening smoking cash games have started to open up in the main card room while the tournament is still playing. The night should be non-smoking ALL NIGHT in both sections. Not non-smoking for ¾ of the night in ½ the card room. When does the Gala plan to implement a full smoking ban? Will it be left to the last minute or can we expect to see a braver stance in the nearer future. Bear in mind that the vast majority of card rooms in the country are non-smoking throughout. Smoking at the poker table is NOT the normal state of affairs.

The atmosphere when I first came was tense to say the least. Nottingham had a reputation for having a ‘robust’ feel to it. When the Tuesday night and Sunday afternoon games where introduced, then later the Wednesday games, the influx of new players saw a vast improvement and it actually became a pleasant place to play for a while. I’m afraid to say that the atmosphere in recent months has not only reversed, but has gone far worse than it was two years when I started. The old guard players are rude to newer players, acting as though their opinion carries more weight because of time served. They behave as if the new players are invaders into their home and openly insult and critisise play. They complain about payout structures, rebuy limitations, smoking bans (an infringement of human rights was claimed recently??) and many other gripes they have. In many cases rules and customs have been played wrong for so many years that it’s impossible to get a correct ruling on simple things like;
- In heads up play, the dealer posts the Small Blind NOT the Big Blind. This is how it’s done in WSOP, WPT, EPT and all major poker events worldwide. In Nottingham it’s the other way round. Perhaps this is a symptom of so many final table deals being done and so many chip counts. Heads Up play is so rarely reached
-It is NOT a string bet if a player makes a single trip with a stack of chips. It’s nothing more than Angle shooting to call it as such, making the player bet the bottom chip only. ‘String bet’ is the number one way old players bully and manipulate new players.
-A new player to the table may NOT play from the dealer button position. That means they are arriving into the most advantageous position at the table.
-It is NOT a fair way of balancing tables to move the shortest chip stack. Up and down the country and across the poker world the Big Blind is moved. To move the shortest stack into a seat where a player has just been knocked out often has the effect of creating a ‘seat of death’ where short stack after short stack is shipped in and knocked out.

Collusion is still a major issue. Nottingham is famous for having a ‘same village’ problem foreign languages are spoken, final table deals and soft play / team play is extremely common. On more than one occasion I’ve been at a final table and declined a deal, only to hear openly discussed deals between other players or loud conversations in other languages followed by passive play between friends.

Tournaments should be played to a conclusion. That means the earlier starts are a good thing but not earlier finishes aswell. 7.30 start and played to a conclusion should be the goal. Not 2am chip count of player deals.

Over the next twelve months Nottingham will have more places to play poker. Places with proper rulings, clean air, no cheating, no deals policy, dealer dealt, well structured, clean friendly environments. If you do not act to correct the issues raised above I estimate you will lose between ½ and ¾ of your poker players which I’m sure will have a big impact on your table games takings.


I look forward to hearing your opinions on these matters.

Ken pulled me aside Sunday afternoon and asked if I had time to sit and talk through the letter so I did.
Firstly he assured me that the doors separating the two halves of the card room would be TOTALLY shut after all tables in the top half had been broken. The smoking ban in the lower section would be 100% until the end of the tournament. He said he personally would be in favour of a total ban but couldn’t see it happening until next summer. He is well aware that other card rooms are going to be opening that may well be non-smoking at the tables but accepted that that might cause them a problem.

With the rules I brought up he'd said he’d always believed that after the button it’s the SB then the BB. He saw no reason that should be different HU. I explained that the button was at a disadvantage preflop because the person off the button had first chance to nick the BB. I explained that the most advantageous situation preflop is to post the small blind from the button, have first crack at the blinds then to speak last post flop. He understood my point of view but basically got the “it’s on the rules board, can’t change it” response. I’ll call this default response for the rest of the post. I also re-emphasised WSOP, EPT, WPT,TDA etc all do it. default response. We then talked about moving shorts stack to balance tables default response and that virtually everyone else moves BB default response I explained about developing a seat of death default response. 

Then we talked about collusion and soft play. He was happy to acknowledge that it goes on but said he couldn’t force people to play their cards. We talked about a few well-known examples of this happening but again, what could he do? That inevitably brought up the subject of house dealers. If we had them and they were trained to spot it, which is often as easy as listening to people talk. “I can’t call, I have a % of him.” Or “how can you raise my blind? We have a share.”
The response was, unless people walk through the door and ask for a job we can’t put dealers on. Ken accepted that it was because the job was badly paid and unsociable hours. I reminded him that other places would be providing dealers and said when that when that happens maybe they’ll offer better wages and get dealers but for the time being they’re struggling to put a valet on some nights, let alone dealers. We also covered comps playing to a conclusion but that was basically summed up by the staffing situation to. The tournament supervisor works an 8 hour shift so the comp is 8 hours long. If it starts earlier, it finishes earlier. Simple as that.

I thanked Ken for taking the time to talk through my issues but don’t feel we got anywhere. He promised me I would get a written response from Chris, the GM. I hoped that would be more detailed. Unfortunately when it came this morning it seemed Ken had been dispatched to do the detail and the letter was to be a brief underlining of what he said. Here is his letter (minus the thankyou for your letter, stuff).

While I may agree with some of your views, I must point out that I have also received the complete opposite view from some of your fellow players. I have quite recently had people complaining about why smoking is not allowed on a Wednesday. Why we have reduced the percentage paid to the winner and why the earlier start times.

The card room poker competitions are run in accordance to the BCA guidelines and Gala casinos procedure manual. There is also an element of local ‘custom & practice’ which can be reviewed as and when needed and I am sure Ken will be happy to discuss with you.
Regarding smoking – while I personally look forward to the smoking ban that comes into force next year, few operations will bring that ban into force before that deadline, (for various reasons – commercial, practical and alternative customer views that do support smoking). The Wednesday ‘no smoking’ competition will remain for the foreseeable future and I will ensure that the ban is enforced. However as long as the folding doors are kept closed between the two areas of the card room, I see no reason why those customers who want to smoke at private games or those playing mah yong etc cannot do so.

Basically I feel the upshot of this is to write again re-asserting my main views that;
BB should be moved to balance tables
Heads Up, the button posts the SB
Nonsmoking should be the default arrangement for a card room.
House dealers would make the comps run faster, smoother and with less collusion.
Flatter structures are the way to stay



I will be putting a couple of polls up to gauge support, opinions and evidence for these views.
The pro-smoking, top heavy supporting colluding players are having their say and they're making more noise. I say DON'T vote with your feet, write your own strong letter and have your opinion counted. send it to,
Chris Maskill,
Gala Casino,
Maidmarion Way
Nottingham
NG7 1FT

I intend to keep a copy of my letters and if I have no joy, send them to Head office instead.
 

Whilst I admire your dedication in going through all of this Adam, I would disagree with your conclusion - now is the time to vote with your feet.

You made your views known, you got stonewalled. There are other places opening soon - wait for them. By all means write more letters, make more of a fuss - but don't go there in the meantime. Let the place wallow in its fetid stench.

Interesting, other casinos i have seen comps started by one person and a shift change in the middle, this works.
BB moving, though not entirely the best way is a defo improvement on what goes on now.
I really never got the button thingy headsup, i don't see the difference  :dontask: maybe someone can explain exactly why it is such a biggy?
Most other cardrooms have a smoking area adjacent to the main cardroom so it is easier to enforce a ban (less people moan because they only have to walk 10 paces to light up).
I understand his viewpoint too though, if he gets one complaint like yours and 3 with another point of view then yours is of little use, i have always believed that these things should be done democratically with the membership polled.
The thing i find astonishing is that the people at the table PAY the dealers!!
That in itself is a shocking policy and against the gaming board rules.

Andrew, voting with my feet only becomes an option when i have somewhere to go. it's at least double the distance to the next nearest card room. when another opens in the city, I wont hessitate.

Ifm, the main point about the button isn't just that the advantage should be with the button and, preflop thats the SB. the main issue is that it's wrong. I like my HU game and fancy I can take on most, if not all. the problemn is that I have to completely reverse my pre flop strategy. With the dealing, the tables are very long kidney shaped tables and would be very difficult to self deal from the ends. also some people are terrified by the prospect of shuffling and dealing.  Thats why one player sits on the stool and deal the whole game. why would anyone do that for nothing? I would prefer house dealers but I admit, dealing the tournaments doies allow me some cheap nights.

Then you're not going to be able to change anything until competition opens up. Why would the Gala Nottingham want to go through the hassle of upsetting a proportion of their regulars if the naysayers are going to turn up and play anyway?

You're banging your head against a brick wall - if you need live poker that much, you're just going to have to suck it up in the meantime.

I deal for nothing at walsall sometimes, i regard it as being helpful and keeping the game flowing, when i've had enough someone else will take over. The same at other casinos (well Dudley), nobody gets paid.
As i said, astonishing.

I need it because it puts food on the table mate. I see no reason why that means I should suck it up. I don't know how long before my options open up so I haev to have my say.

Fine, have your say - but accept it will prove utterly fruitless until the Gala Nottingham has competition.

I'm just being a realist.

 ;iagree;

PS I loved the bit about "wallowing in their fetid stench"  rotflmfao

i agree. - although i tend to make it once a week as i like to play live poker i am struggling to find motivation to attend these comps now.  This time last year i was a 3 or 4 times a week player.  Its good that you have tried Adam but fear things won't change until they simply have to due to competition but by then i am pretty sure it will be too late - the players will have already gone elsewhere and doubt they will go back without real incentives.

its a shame you decide to walk instead of write Junior. if we all wrote instead of walked maybe we'd win.

Adam, sent you a PM.

cheers Junior

Voted with my feet a long time ago. I was going to go on Wednesdays but as the smoking ban is not enforced, no thanks...internet only until DTD opens

I really cant believe people still go and complain at the same time!

Just stop bloody going!

Adam there are plenty of cardrooms in the country and there are dozens of internet sites.

Adam do you play a lot of table games

regards

M

Evening mate, where the bloody hell have you been??

Adam,

I think your motives are excellent, but I also think that until a lot of people make the same stand, you are going to be fighting a losing battle. if they have a lot of long time users who are happy with the status quo, then it probably appears to the Mgt to be silly to change things so much if it risks losing the people who bring in the dosh over the long term.

It's not nice, and personally I wouldn't agree with it, but from what i can tel of a lot of higher up casino mgt, they aren't really in the modern times yet.

Perhaps you need to keep chipping away, perhaps with the advent of other more progressive places, their mindset will change.

I can understand your frustration. With all I have heard about Nottingham, I don't think I would like to play there, as a newcomer.

You've had this battle with them a few times, from what i can remember. I think you will win eventually, but it may take time.

Heid

If you need to put food on the table I would be inclined to keep quite. What do you do if they Ban you, that's why I ask if you played table games.

If you are using the Casino for Poker only they may just get bored of your complaining. I agree Adam with most things you write about but remember the Casino does not need to give a reason to refuse admission.

How would you feel if the Casino FODTR'd you 

regards

M 
 

Say what now ?

Thanks - that's a new one on me...

adam
      im same as greg , i use to attend 4/5 nights per week
now i wont go unless there is dealers on.
beleive me youre smashing youre head against a brick wall .
vote with youre feet m8 ,its the only way .
rob yong used to go in there and play the table games .BIG
he had many a set to with the management ,to no avail
thats the reason hes opening his own club .
this is what has been needed for a long time .
if you look round the place youlle see not many old faces left
only the ones who collude

The Gala is getting a bad reputation as a place of collusion. As this reputation grows, more and more people will start voting with their feet.

They'll soon sit up and take notice.

its not just that sloppy ,
its the managements attitude ,
a few times people have been stuck in traffic
and been late by 30 seconds for buy ins
and wouldnt let them in .
people like lawrance from leeds a fair distance .
they stand there telling you to sit down at the top of there voice
its like being at school again .
theyve no consideration for the poker players

I  used to play occasionally at the Nottingham Gala while I was at Uni, and agree fully with all your complaints.

For clarity, I can add the reason for the small blind being on the button when heads up.

In Hold'em, the blinds are posted out of position.

This stimulates action: imagine a hold'em game in which a single blind was posted by the player on the button; what holding would you need to take this player on compared with raising an OOP blind from the button?

So when heads up, the larger of the live blinds should be posted in front of the button, by the player out of position in future rounds.

If heads-up is played incorrectly as in Nottingham (and some sites online) it becomes correct to play fewer hands from the small blind (out-of-postion) as the big blind can play far more aggressively from the button. This kills the action and changes the game significantly.

It is also likely to take longer.

As you know Adam, I've not been going for a while. I've been short of money of late, but to be honest in the past that hasn't stopped me going really. I have just lost all motivation to go. I dread sitting with certain regulars at the tab;e (naming no names) because of the 'String Bet' bullying, or the general rubbish that gets spouted about what happened 'before'.

I'll do my best to write a letter to support you, but as people have said until competion opens, Gala will take no notice... and by then we'll all be gone anyway. I remember that when i first went to Gala, although a little intimidating, I was helped along with my game and general table ettiquette. All I'd learn now if I was a new player was how to bend rules, abuse your fellow players and ruin peoples nights.

Like I say, this has been the reason for my lack of attendance this year - but despite all this I do miss live poker, but because of work and money cant afford to use the casinos elsewhere.

From my experience of Gala, your attempts to improve things will unfortunately fall on deaf ears and it will be a case of like it or lump it unitl you've got somewhere else to go.

HERE HERE
the last thing to worry about is the button sittuation ,
theres other more pressing things
dont get me wrong im not saying its not an issue
but if they sorted the other things out like collusion ,
it might make it more easier on the players
like iv said before its like smashing youre head against a brick wall
GL