blonde poker forum

Now then - Now Then.

Have just returned from a tournament in Blackpool with the distinct feeling of being robbed to the point of being ready to kill anyone with 50yds of me, and also to a certain extent, cheated. Allow me to explain.

There are 27 players left in the event, with an average stack of 30,500, and I am in the big blind with 41,500. The hands are folded to the guy behind the button who flat calls for 6,000. At that point I see I am holding  Kc Kd. I immediately start humming to the tune of "Mack The Knife" whilst tapping the beat on the table rail, this was done to give the impression i am not interested in the hand (I had done this numerous times during the evening, and had won a good size pot earlier in the night using this tactic).

The button - who is also table chip leader - calls, as does the small blind. At the very point he says call, I stop humming and tapping and announce "Raise".
The guy behind the button says I cannot raise, as I have checked by tapping the rail. The dealer agrees and immediately turns over the flop to reveal  7c 6h 4s. The small blind raises all-in for another 9,000. At this point I see no point in carrying on complaining, and push in all my chips as I need to push the others off their hands, leaving me "heads-up with the small blind.

The guy behind the button immediately pushes his stack in for 55,000. The button then states that although he reckons he has us all beat, is folding his  Ts Tc because of 2 threats (me and guy behind him) to his potential call. We are "on yer backs" and I find guy behind button has  5c 3h off suit, and has made the straight. The small blind has  Ahrt 3d (gutshot straight draw). Turn comes  4c, river  7h and I am out.

I feel I was robbed because if I had been allowed to raise (an obvious play so as not to let anyone catch an ace on the cheap, and go in front), the guy behind button would have folded ( 5c 3h), the button ( Ts Tc) would call (he feels he's in front after all, and now would have only 1 threat to his stack, namely, me), the small blind would still have called preflop for the pot odds value he was getting by having an ace in the hole, and I would have won a pot of 116,000.

The cheating element is in the guy behind button insisting I had checked, as he could under no circumstance call any raise with his hand (why was he there in the first place), and therefore gained the cheap flop under false pretences.

Its not so often I make a totally serious post on this forum, but in this case feel it neccessery, and would like to hear others thoughts, and also detail the percentages I would have had to win the hand under "normal" circumstances.

On flop of  7c 6h 4s:
Button ( Ts Tc) = 9.63%
Small Blind ( Ahrt 3d) = 26.14%
Big Blind ( Kc Kd) = 61.13%

And on turn (being  4c), these percentages went further in my favour as follows:
Button ( Ts Tc) = 4.76%
Small Blind ( Ahrt 3d) = 16.67%
Big Blind ( Kc Kd) = 78.57%

As I write this post a mate has MSN me with the following, which he found on the net:
"Angle-Shooting" definition

Angle-Shooting - Using unfair tactics.

Usage: A poker player who uses various underhanded, unfair methods to take advantage of inexperienced opponents. The difference between an angle shooter and a cheat is only a matter of degree. What a cheat or thief does is patently against the rules; what an angle shooter does may be marginally legal, but it's neither ethical nor gentlemanly. Nor is it in the spirit of the game. Unfortunately, poker is not a gentleman's game. In addition to learning how to protect yourself against cheating players, you must learn to watch out for the angle shooters.

there's no doubt at all that you've been the victim of angle shooting here. HOWEVER, you've given them too much amunition to do so. you're tapping the table / rail is the universal signal for "check" and so you've checked out of turn 50+ time while they've been acting on their hands. You've probably irritated them with you're tapping and the small blind has decided to catch you out by calling for the ruling he did. The learn here is don't do anything that can be interpreted as an action. Don't pretend to check, pretend to raise pretend to pass, tap, hum, whistle or do anything that isn't specifically related to your actual intentions.

also, don't look at your cards until the SB has acted.

unlucky though

There are some (not me) who would consider this angle-shooting. Why tap the table, it is associated with checking, passivity, no danger etc.


You've learned your lesson, hum and tap as much you like, just quit it a bit sooner in future so there's no grey area.
Even if the dealer disagrees next time and allows the raise, the player who objected is likely to obtain valuable information from your reaction to the objection.

If you saw no point in complaining at the time then you cant have a case of complaining afterwards. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, if you thought what was happening was wrong you should have complained at the time. A proper ruling would have been given by the card room manager and it would have been resolved there and then.

If I where the guy behind the button I would have insisted you where checking as well.  Especially if I have some chips in the pot and I want to see a cheap flop.  In a home game or amongst friends I wouldn't dream of doing it but in a competitive enviroment I reckon you have to use every possible advantage you can.

You where not cheated IMO, you gave them aenough rope and they hung you out to dry.

And don't wave your hands in the air at an auction if you don't intend to bid.     ;tk;

i disagree bandit, I think what the SB did was wrong and angleshooting IS NOT ok in a competetive environment. however irritating the tapping and humming was, they all new bigslicks intention was not to check and they are basically collectively abusing the rules. A good dealer would accept the raise and tell the player not to tap on the table anymore and also to insist on verbal declarations from that player

even though i'm inclined to agree with tank i do so reluctantly as he has no hat.

i'm eager to know if you had checked frequently by tapping the table during this tourney?

Got pulled up (by Snoopy who was dealing I think), for this at BB2 - was tapping the table, then went raise. Was told that the tapping could have been taken as a check. Friendly tourney so I said OK then if anyone thought I'd checked then we'll count it as a check. I was lucky enough that my KK stood up.

Doubt it was angle shooting though - just me having a  :blonde:.

Easy....................................PAY ATTENTION & SIT STILL.....

I heard of a guy telling a poker story at the table, and says "so of course i'm all in"  Well the action was on him and the dealer told him the all in had to stand. Lucky for him everyone folded.

Now Then - Now Then.

Thank you for the replies which I have taken on board.  However, I wish to answer a question raised by one of the reply's, and clarify the situation to the others.

To bolt pp.
During the whole length of the tournament (some 6hrs) when in the big blind and not wanting to raise, i verbally announced "NO RAISE". This was no exception with the particular table I was on (with the same dealer).

To AdamM.
It was not the small blind  Ahrt 3d who complained, but the guy behind the button  5c 3h.  The small blind was the short stack, and with 6,000 invested was always going to get his remaining chips in (imho) with his ace.

To Matt674.
There was no point complaining at that time as the dealer had already dealt the flop before I had chance to seek a ruling from the TD, although that 'should' have been my right (again, imho).  At that point the guy behind the button would have seen he had made a straight.

In closing, it could be said the guy behind the button intentionally limped in with the idea of raising the complaint 'if' I announced raise. But in that we will never know.  However, let me leave you with this senerio (hope thats spelt correctly).  You are in the big blind as I was.  You turn round to take a drink, and as you return to play your hand, at the moment your hand touches the table, someone says the same. Afterall, no matter how lightly you touched the table, it could be construde as a tap, could'nt it?

I think you are just splitting hairs now.



PS. I have never heard anyone announce NO RAISE.

 WHY MAKE THINGS SO HARD ON YOURSELF ? If i didnt pick up on the NO....... i would say you had raised..Why use the word Raise at all, when you have no intention of going there.

You must have been getting on their tits big time LMAO........ Tapping singing and saying NO RAISE...

Yes, so don't.  :)

It's common in the UK bundle.

  Really ? That seems so strange....

Now Then - Now Then.

In reply to the tank who said "Yes, so don't", does that mean don't touch the table with any part of your body at all?  Then how can I pick up my cards?

And yes, this is pedantic  :D

I've never heard it either ???

Can the TD not prder a new flop if he gave a ruling in Bigslicks favour?

As Tank points out bundle it is quite common to hear such thingas as "no raise" or "no bet" at the table.

To Big Slick, you had an opportinity to raise this with the TD and you never took the oportunity.

If someone said you checked you obviously disagree and the dealer agrees with the complainer there seems ample time here for you to object further before any other cards are turned over.

Now Then - Now Then.

To GlasgowBandit.
I would have loved to have got a ruling from the TD, but as I previously stated, the flop had been dealt. I am unaware a new flop could be dealt.
Hope someone will enlighten us on that point

I am not a 100% certaon on this but if the TD had ruled in your favour then I am sure there could have been another flop dealt or the hand declared void with all betters receiving their chips back and the card been re-dealt.

Only from dealing at Notts Gala I would say touching the table is OK, it's the tap tap tap which could be seen as a check.

Whenever I have had a player do this, usually innocently, I have half jokingly said straight away "be careful, they could say you're checking". Usually wises them up.

Lesson here is don't give the angle shooters enough rope to hang you.

Picking up cards vs. drum solo? Come on now.



Sorry to appear unsympathetic, but that's the game of poker sometimes.

Wasn't very nice of the man who pulled the stroke, but chalk it up, never let a cat fool ya twice.

Ceratainly not healthy to sit down and work out the exact %'s you would have had to win the hand on each street if you managed to raise and the rags folded. That ain't doing you any good.

NO RAISE. It just serves no purpose, and can most certainly cause  problems..

I mean how F#$%@#$ hard is it to say CHECK

I heard about actionjack being warned for not speaking English at the table. Now I’m sure you guys will have no problems, but if you find yourself at the WSOP this year, you might want to be careful about saying nae RAISE. It’s all the dealer needs to hear to make you raise.

I agree bundle. The less chance of ambiguity in a player declaring their betting actions the better.

It's born of dealers asking the big blind "Any Raise?" or just "Any?" when perhaps they should ask "Check or Raise"

I'm guilty of that myself sometimes, old habits die hard I guess.

The dealer asks the big blind "Any raise?" to which the usual saying is "No" or "No raise" although some people say "Check".

The TD has the right to order a new flop if he thought you had been "done"

The TD also has the say on angle shooting, is the person calling the attention of tapping angle shooting, or is the person tapping guilty of angle shooting indicating that is his next action, leaving players with the thought they may see a cheap flop. Then being able to raise???

If you were guilty of it being taken as a check then you are also guilty of acting out of turn. As said before nothing is black and white most decisions are grey and taken as it has been told or seen.

  I don't think the dealer should be saying anything other than Action to you mate.

Then they post what they think is their blind, cuz the buggers aint paying attention and i may have already withheld their big blind if they won the previous pot. It isn't really inciting action it is the fact that everyone has had the opportunity and i am asking the big blind if they wish to raise as it is now their opportunity.

I understand what you are saying and you are moving the game along. But do you see how it could cause problems at the WSOP, or at least hold the game up while players argue about what he said….. Is this No raise used in the rest of Europe too?. 

OOO can i stick an oar in. He said tapping the rail? The rail doesn't count as the table does it? tapping the rail surley isn't checking.Whens the last time you saw a check by taping the rail? If it was ambiquious the dealer would ask is that a check?
What about performing a chip trick like a pull over, your taping the table here.
But tapping the table making noises humming etc while others are acting is rude anyway.

If it was me (not sure, can't remember), then I was probably just pulling your leg. I'd never be that mean at a social event.  :)

It seems to me that there's a fine line between angle shooting and misleading your opponents fair and square. I have no problems with people pretending to be uninterested in a hand when they hold the nuts, but I do have problems with people insisting on a check when they know it wasn't one.

It's like AdamM's point about dropping the first chip. Everyone at the table knows it isn't an angle shoot when the newbie drops one chip a split second be4 the other, but then some veteran insists that the first chip only stands.

Sometimes we need to inject more common sense into the game, especially when the area a as grey as Slick Kid's checking scenario. Either that or we make the areas less grey by bringing some clarification to these minor rules.

I dont think you were robbed and I dont think it was angle shooting. If sombody checks out of turn by tapping the table it should stand.  ;reallyamsorry;

 I dont think is up to everybody else to realise that you huming and fake checking is only a cunning plot to mislead us as to the value of your hand.

Do you find these actions fool anybody ? lol  rotflmfao

I knew that - it was one of the other players who noticed it, you said that I had been & it couls be taken as a check. I think if I'd argued I'd have been able to raise, but I said OK first action counts we'll take it as check.

I then raised the flop & got no action anyway :(

Certainly not complaining at you (I didn't even know I was tapping - over-excited at the KK I'd just received  :D)