blonde poker forum

The below is part of a post reproduced from the Vic Day1a Live update


 
Rolandinho05 (who is WPT winner Roland DeWolfe)

    Re: £1500 European Poker Classic at the Vic - LIVE UPDATE DAY1A
« Reply #234 on: Today at 01:58:19 am »     


And yes the devilfish is right- what a bad event. Ten handed tables and a structure that is diabolical. Where were the 75-150 and 150-300 levels? whats the point of two day start for the event if u structure it like that. Again players treated like total dogs. It is  a crapshoot- just three hours in and its 2000 to go and 5000 to reraise. Great skill!

Why cant we have decent events?

John Duthies Monte Carlo EPT final showed the way and the Deauville event was not far behind.

Total joke from the Vic.




These comments are mirrored by a lot of players on this update, including devilfish, dpommo and others...eg "the structure is an absolute farce"


My questions are these:

Why do so many players (satellite winners aside) chose to stump up for these events at the Vic?

How can the Vic be persuaded to put on slower structures if the players still turn up in droves?

Why, if you set aside two days for Day 1, play down to 27 on day 2 and then have a final day do you not have levels such as 75-150 and 150-300?

The EPT structures are now allowing for significantly more play than they did in EPT season 1....there's no excuse


As an aside, it is not just the huge events that are badly structured at the Vic...the regular freezeouts start with quick clocks and fewer chips than comparable comps elsewhere...so much so that I have told myself I am staying away until it changes.

this is certainly a problem but until people start voteing with there feet and refuse to enter these events nothing will change.

£1500 entry for a glorified crapshoot is a joke, we have better structures in our regular friday night £30 freezeouts.

unfortunatly some casinos that run poker are in it for the money only and just want players out so they go and play the gaming tables etc. they dont care about the game of poker or the players.

its a shame but until some places are boycotted it wont change.

GREAT POST Mr End..

Couldnt of put it better myself, and indeed I said the VERY SAME thing last time The Vic held a big event, and went and played the Gutshot Sporting Odds event instead. - We need more and more people to do this, unless it aint never changing :(

Look at the pressure that was put on Napoleans in Sheffield? They had a rule whereby you couldnt pre register for a tourney, which ment getting to the casino 5 hours before a comp started just to buy in!! (The idea being that you then have 5 hours to kill to waste money on the gaming tables) This has now been changed due to some severe pressure.

As for me? Well I was a $100 satelite qualifier, so I am all geared up today to play it like an internet MTT - Wish me luck

Good luck  :)up :)up :)up :)up :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

Go on M3 - just win it!!!

Good luck M3 :)

I have to say I thought the blind structure was farcical for a big buy-in, prestege, ranking event

In answer to your question, I would not have payed good money to play such a crapshoot, nor will I in the future, I was there on a sattellite and I still felt like I was being robbed

Why, for instance, were the first two levels only 45 minutes?

Why was there no 75/150 or 150/300 levels?

Why was a running antie introduced so early?

Why did the management ignore the fact that EVERYONE was complaining?

Than to cap it all, after doing their best to eliminate most of the field, they suspend play an hour early because otherwise there would not be enough players coming back on Saturday

I am a big believer in voting with my feet, so until things change, I won't be going back

I'm sure they won't lose much sleep over my absence from future Vic festivals, but it's the best I can do

Gone are the days when we had no choice, there are well run festivals on every week these days, I'll be putting my money where it's most appreciated

you couldn't make it up  :D


Excellent post RED...You and me, boycotting, against the World!!


p.s Good luck tomorrow when you get busy!!

Add my name to the boycott.




Not that i would ever attend an event at the Vic after such a review.

Some great points made..... and since they read the Forum,could these please be put to the Vic via  last night sponsors.....Blue Square. ??

Good luck M3 and Red.....I've got you both at 125/1 :)up.....(.each way so no pressure :D)

As blonde grows, I hope they start to take notice.

I have been playing live now for 3 months, l know some of u will say " whos he to be saying anything" but l have planned turning Professional for nearly 18 months ensuring l had the bankroll etc.

My first visit to the well touted "Vic Cardroom" was for the £750 FO on Monday and it was my worst experience yet closely followed by a 40 minute fight to get a seat in the 500euro FO at the Deauville EPT. It was terrible. First l had to go buy a shirt, the car park was full and the Card Room was a disorganised load of ********   ***** ******* ******* ******. We had to deal our own satallites after paying juice, the food was bad and then l had to wait 40 mins for a drink in the game. The starting stack was crap and the blind/ante structure was incompetent.

I'm on my way now for the Main Event but its only as l paid for it ages ago and it is invaluble experience, but l will not be back..................unless it changes.


Short and Sweet.

Incidently, the guy who sat next to me to start lasted all of 10 mins....and paid in full!!   ouch !!!!

Part of the problem is the cash game scene at the Vic is so well established....eight or so tables a night with lengthy waiting lists.......not only the Michael Arnolds and Neil Channings making a good living in there but a steady supply of tourists and assorted players keeping the games juicy.

the management can concentrate on this thriving area of thier business and have no real motivation to keep the tournament punters happy. Many people go there, play the tournaments fast in the knowledge that they can get in a juicy cash game.

Its no excuse, but it is the reason why the Vic has never had to change.

Thats very true Tightend....thats why maybe pressure should be put on the "sponsors" last night.They had several reps there, their advertising everywhere,(including the chips!)......if they want people to play this event they should listen and respond.

Incidently,the Vic have picked up on what the Sportsman are doing, and are now doing a £250 nl tourney on a Monday night with a free 2 course meal !!

Hi guys,  I will be playing today as I got my seat last week. I totally agree with you about the structure. However please understand that it is not the dealers or lower management that make these decisions. I have heard a few comments were made to dealers last night. They are not responsible for the bad beats or the structure. They are all interested in poker and if they could voice an opinion they would all agree.

The Vic knew how many players they would get. They had put on an extra day. The decision is made by the management of the club. Luton is part of Grosvenor but set their own structures. Their xmas event ended up with blinds of 2000 / 4000 when the average was 100,000. A proper final structure. The other thing is the restaurant. Why pay for the buffet. They know how annoying this is. Good practice would be to have given it for free or added £10 to the juice to make you feel like you were being looked after. Perhaps the start of a players union would help.

Well needed.

It's clearly not the fault of the dealers....who at the Vic are excellent. Even though Niall is a Luton fan.

The situation is that each Grosvenor within the Grosvenor group set's its own festival structure...and in terms of management each set of inspectors at each club runs its own business and takes a £ share at the end of each accounting period

Its down to Jeff and Caroline at the Vic in this case....whereas IMHO Carmel at Luton and Yogi at Blackpool and Dani at Walsall get it consistently right

Players Union....yeah great...(we've had that discussion 36 times before!) but it needs a) someone to step forward and b) the poker players to be prepared to be represented by one voice when there are often a lot of vested interests to deal with.

I had a few friends playing there last night.One text me at 11pm saying this is a crapshoot "what is the point" i replyed saying you knew that reply
"bloody hell not this bad after 3 hours unless you want to grind your racing with any half decent hand" With poker as i see it the new football i.e.
more and more people playing and watching the game surely its about time the *stars* players werent taken for mugs.I doudt there are many left after last night who at one stage didnt put all their chips in the middle...............is that NLHE POKER or a crapshoot.
Poker in america is huge ,players are treated like sports celebes this countrys attitude as per normal seems to be see how much we can make out of this fad.When all the decent british players are playing over there for a living and they struggle to get "names" for their crapshoots over here they "the tournament organisers" will use that old phrase "we knew it would not last" complete tripe .Poker is here to run in my opinion for the next 5years minimum at its currently increasing volume and until such time as cardrooms cater for the card player rather than themselves the live game will only go backwards.........T.V. coverage can only use live games ...........one goes backward where does the other one go.



I agree with TK there needs to be some body of some sorts.They could have turned around to the vic and said "clock and blinds not acceptable what can you do" no doubt f all but at least it would be a start.


Rant over sorry if you dont agree but the game as a whole in this country has to progress and move on up and the debacle {one of the bigger payouts in english poker) of this tournament should be learnt from.



everyone be lucky

tony

Ok then. I will ask one of my programmers to put up a home page for people to register their interest. If we get the interest then we will do it. What is important is to have a mission statement. What are we trying to avhieve and so on. If anyone wnats to be involved then send me an email.  My address is deniso@kewcomputers.com   Please mark it players union as I get a lot of mail and would not like to miss your mail.

Fair play to Irishdennis in stepping upto the plate.  ;applause;

trouble is poker tournaments need to be run by people with the love of the game not employed by some money making organisation and drawing their monthly salary regardless of success.

roll on dusk til dawn opening and a real poker lover like rob yong can show them how its done

Ok. I've got to defend the Vic.

First: Most people are complaining there was no 75-150 and 150-300 levels. Well, no there wasn't but there was a 500-1000 which i've never seen in a major Grosvenor festival. Many people moan about the tv tournaments which degenerate into crapshoots when the money is about to won. I for one, would rather have a 500-1000 level (they normally go from 400-800 to 600-1200) than a 75-150 level which serves no purpose. I do agree there was roon for 150-300 level...

Second: Red asks why running antes were introduced so quickly. Well, I think they came in too late! At the WSOP they have running antes of 25 at the 100-200 level! At the Vic they came in at 400-800!

I have played all over the world and in my opinion the Vic staff are the best anywhere. The dealers are just superb.

I just do not understand players who clamour for a funerial structure. This just means when we reach the money spots the play becomes a crapshoot. I would rather have alot of play at the final table than when there are 300 players left...

I was approached by two of the Senior Cardroom Managers last night, "we've been getting some stick I gather" they said.

"Yup, a bit" I replied, & went on to explain the gist of the issue.

We agreed to have a chat about it on Sunday, & I genuinely believe they are, & will be, receptive to sensible discussion.

To see so many peeps giving The Vic unadultered criticism, withoit any balance, serves no real purpose in my opinion.

If there is a problem, chat with the Management. They WILL listen.

IS there a problem?

My own view had been "yes, where are the 75-150 & 150-300 levels?", but let's be fair here, The Camel, & only The Camel, have reminded us that the 500-1,000 level exists, a level I can rarely recall seeing anywhere else. And The Camel does know a thing or two about Poker.....

So it's not that cut & dried that they messed up, not at all.

It's a subjective thing, & if anyone is unhappy, I urge them to approach The Vic Management & air their views in a polite & constructive manner.

Am I taking The Vic's side here? Not at all. But I DO believe that "balance" is needed in the debate. And I DO believe that discussing any gripes with The Vic in a sensible, civil, well-mannered way will result in them changing things - if indeed they need changing.

the presence of a 500-1000 level is a decent counter-argument and is a genuine difference its true

I suppose if you are "rockish" you like all the time in the world to wait for your premium stuff...if you are more active then a faster clock is of less importance and the more play provided by this extra level later on is of more value to you

I think my point would be that by the time the tournament gets to 500-1000 the poker is push and fold and raise/re-raise all in so the amount of play is already at a lower level due to the speed of the tournament earlier on.

Thanks Tighty.

Now we can start to see some balance in the debate at last.....

Keep it coming!

Right, this is not directed at anyone in particular, but I feel players are cheated when they are not told the structure/blind levels.

At the Vic - why play the first 2 levels as 45 minutes?

Now the clock has been extended to 90 minute clock on official day 2 - had players been told this in day 1 I am confident that some would of played different.

I just think it is unfair on players.

Now that they have increased the clock to 90 minute levels with 60 odd players left - does this indeed not show that the structure was way out for a 3 day comp?!?!?

(My last post on the subject)

I don't quite understand your point Tony, What do you mean by balance?

I thought the structure was bad and I said so, what's wrong with that?

I could say that the toasted tuna sandwiches were good if that helps

 

Do we not think that the decision to lengthen blind levels to 90 mins at the start of today is a tacit admission of a prior mistake and they realise that they need to do this to ensure enough players come back for tomorrow?

Not sure I would have been greatly impressed at having to play quite quickly day 1, geting knocked out, and then seeing day 2 revert to a crawlathon!

I for one would have played the last level on Thursday completely differently had I known I was coming back to a 90 min clock and blinds of 500/1000

thought you might have done  :D

I like the structure if thats what players were told at the start!

For a while i have said 1hr long structures are pointless when the blinds go up so slow early on, i would rather have the poker at the buissness end.

So if they had said right at the start "45mins for first 2 levels, we miss the 75-150 and 150-300 levels and then on day 2 we start on 500-1000 with 90 minute clock" i would have been happy (maybe need that 150-300 level back, would rather lose 25-50 than 150-300)

However my understanding is that it was not the case and things have been changing mid comp, which is NO GOOD! As Red says, it changed the way he played.

The advertised structure gave the blind levels, but NOT the clock. One can only assume this was intentional, to give themselves "elbow room" to adjust if they saw fit. From personal experience, I know this "room to maneouvre" is no bad thing. If it's possible to slow a clock, then that's good, but in an ideal world, yes, the advertised structure should be adhered to. If only we lived in an ideal world! We changed things "on the hoof" at bB2 & got it in the neck!

Tom, by "balanced" I mean this. The debate is subjective - there is no right or wrong, it's all opinions. Nobody can say either side is 100% right or wrong, fact. So with so much of the argument being Anti Vic, I simply felt it necesary to redress the balance a little. Beating the shite out of The Vic won't help the cause! We even had a Member who named himself "IHATETHEVIC"....

Then Camel Posted, & I must say, that made me think again - the man knows his stuff, though thats not to say he is always right, but he reminded us about the 500-1,000 Level, which no other Poster had noticed, or mentioned. "Balance" again.

Finally, we have a responsibility to our Members, & to Rank, who facilitate our Updates, to try & ensure debates are "balanced", & when it's a subjective matter, as this is, both sides get a fair hearing. Doubtless we shall air this on next week's 425 at length - I do hope some of you e-mail the studio to help the debate along, & I'll raise the matter on my Poker Night Live Phone-in n Wednesday, again, please send your views to the show to oil the wheels of the debate.

Finally, I heard one guy complain about the structure before it started, & he got short shrift - "if you don't like it, you can withdraw" - which was hardly helpful, to be fair.

I guess my prob (or one of them) is that I tend to side with the underdog, especially if everyone is piling in, & I acknowledge that failing..

Structures should NEVER change mid comp. The vic has enough experience running comps that i don't think they need elbow room when it comes to running a comp.

They are supposed to be the flagship, yet Luton to almost evreyone is the far superior place when it comes to cardroom management from the players point of view.

Tikay you can side with the underdog if you want, but you have to understand that there is more than enough information about structures available to cardroom managers, if they can be bothered to investigate.

A good structure should allow an average stack to call a raise from another average stack without feeling pot committed until at least near the bubble - average should be at least 20BBs, preferably more than this.

A lot of the problems I feel are caused by starting tournaments late.  Amsterdam manages to provide tournaments that go from 200+ players down to a final in one day by starting at 2pm, but if you have an average stack you can happily call a raise and see a flop well into the tounaments.  South England based players who work can surely take a half day - the rest of field are pros and people travelling from further afield who will be unaffected by an earlier start.

Nice stuff Doubleup, bt I do seem to be the only one trying to see BOTH sides of this debate.

For example, you say a good structure should have "at least 20 BB's" (though you don't say at what stage). What is the current average chips & how many BB's is that as at start of play on Sunday (Day 3)?

But then again......

I don't think I've ever seen a tourney which began at 45 minute levels, increased to 1 hour, then increased again to 90 minutes....! Mind you, there would be riots if it started at 90 minutes, then went to 60, then 45!

I think one positive action from the Vic management team is that they have had the bottle to slow the blinds and allow poker to be played rather than the usual crapshoot scenio you get in most later parts of a tournments. Far to frequently we see players work hard getting into a final only to see that they have little or no room to play due to the level of blinds. Why is it that in the most interesting part of the competition, the final, when your playing for big money most players find that they only moves are to fold, flat call or go allin.

And yes, I do acknowledge the fact that the Vic have got themselves into the position of having to amend the structure mid tournament which is not desirable. They got the intail structure wrong as it was far to fast.

A sensible starting structure with the option to slow it down mid to late tournament to maintain a playable game is what I hope for. The question is would tournament directors slow a game down to allow greater play for the players as they don't get any more money for working longer.