blonde poker forum

We all saw recently how the big final at the Vic was dominated by players of a "certain" age.... Bambos, Colin Kennedy, Kevin O'Connell, a gentleman connected with Blonde, to name but a few...

After reading Jen's report

http://www.blondepoker.net/cms/index.php?q=node/1566

and The Camel's comments in threads on this board  on the same subject


i stumbled across this blog

http://acehighwins.blogspot.com/2006/03/gutshot_27.html


and the first comment after the latest post was by professional poker player David Young 

He says

"A Norwegian friend of mine came over to play some big comps at the Vic last week and remarked on how bad the younger British players are. He said that in Scandinavia the older players are all broke because the new kids have sent them skint.

But in Britain, he reckons it's the other way around - the new blood are the value. I'm glad it's that way around!

DY"


The strength of the general point about the abilities of the young players outside Britain can also be seen when we look at EPT series 2 winners where with the exception of Jan Boubli in Barcelona the winners are

Mark Telscher
Patrick Antonius
Mats Gavatin
Mads Andersen
Mats Iremark
Jeff Williams

All of whom would be described as whippersnappers not old timers -  albeit two of the six are American.

Now I know it is difficult to generalise and I can straight away point to JP Kelly, James Adkin and Jen to help refute the argument. Ok..Bradley and Flushie too  :D

but what do you think...does the gentleman talking to David Young have a point?

If he does, why is this?

So what age group do "whippersnappers" fall into, what age group are you in if you are an "old timer" and is there a gap in between?

If so what are the remainder called?

Tweenies of course

lets say less than 25 years old, 25-40 and 40 plus and then tikay plus

I don't really see what age has to do with poker.  I would assume that younger Scandies are generally have more of the personality aspect that comes in handy for certain things like poker and that even non poker playing people are of a certain personality.

<---------------gets out monkey abacus

So thats 2 red balls across 1 blue ball back plus 3 yellow balls across taking off remaining green ball.

HOW OLD!!! Wow.

Glad i fall into middle catagory, i'm not fresh meat for the whippersnappers of Scandinavia or the Old timers of the UK.....

I think that in Scandinavia, there were significantly fewer old-timers to begin with (live poker not as established as it is here) and more young guns so in terms of numbers the kids would be better placed to exact geriatricide.

Also, it could be argued that the good performance of the old-timers at the Vic was due to the structure. Online, we're not used to playing in tournaments where a roulette wheel is spun at the start of each level to decide how long the clock will be... :)

;iagree;

Plus, 2 points

- is it possible that in Britain the 'old-timers' have evolved with the game rather than standing still?

- Are the scandinavian 'old-timers' actually new players to the game, and then it becomes less to do with age and more to do with experience.

i thought Jen and flushie were mid thirties?  :D

the game is definately changing - the young aggressive scandie move makers are certainly a different prospect to the granddad grinders of old like wernick and kendall   :D

There is more than one way to skin a cat though or in deed to win a tournament.  i think the Uk does have its fair share of good young players but i take the point that there haven't been too many outstanding results / perfromances by young brits abroad - obvious exceptions include Milkybarkid who has had great results in scandinavia and twice in monte carlo.

But cant think of too many other 'notables' - apologies if i have missed one.

It's not really an age thing, it should be split into those who were playing live poker before the advent of online poker, and those of us who learnt the game on the internet.

There are also more of the former here because of Late Night Poker - this got a lot of people into poker in this country a few years before internet poker really took off.

All i have to say is go to an EPT event and just count the number of young Brits you could count them on 2 hands. Now do the same with young scandies, half the field, its of course obvious they will get results between them.

The best young players in the UK rarely play on the european circuit, they are happy sticking to the net. The scandies however go on a group holiday to an EPT and destroy it.

there's a band of young(ish) uk players that not many of the live scene players has ever heard of that would twiddle DY around on their little fingers and empty his pockets before you can say "cantankerous old goat", but instead of playing live they stick to the internet... adoring the anonymity.

All it takes is for one year of these people to decide to play live-poker, take it by storm, and then all of a sudden the UK will have one of the best youth scenes in the world, such is the fickle nature of redundant statistics.

Also. I expect that the reason why our older generation aren't broke, is that we probably have the best "older" players in Europe... so its naturally gonna be harder to send them busto, both because of their skill, and the depth of their pockets.

 ;iagree;

i much prefer sticking to the internet...........oh wait - i didnt see the word young in there :'( uh oh didnt see the word best either - this selective word reading disorder will get me into trouble one day!!

All the talk among friends before the world series was "who will be the next big thing" or "how unlikely it'll be for the known faces to win bracelets with these field sizes".

WSOP Bracelets were won in record sized fields by:

Johnny Chan
Doyle Brunson
TJ Cloutier
Phil Ivey
Erik Seidel
David Chiu
Josh Arieh
Jennifer Tilly

Seems to me experience counts for everything in America at least.

The point is being missed here by some, imo.

The EPT fields, & thus results, ARE dominated by Scandies, but an EPT is a big thing to them, as thery don't have a Domestic Tournment Circuit to speak of.

We Brits, although many of us take it for granted, are extremely lucky, in that we have an absolutely fantastic Domestic Circuit.

Bring the young whizz-pop-bang Scandies over here, & the British Boys wlll send them home empty-handed.

Great thread, & welcome back Tighty. The break has done you good, your (creative) juices are flowing like flowy things.

Is that not what Englands ancestors said to the vikings many moons ago?

I was about to enquire of Tighty as to what category I belonged in - whippersnapper or old timer, but he stopped me short, & caused me to burst out laughing, with THIS corker.

lets say less than 25 years old, 25-40 and 40 plus and then tikay plus

BORING thread, & naff off again Tighty. The break has done you no good, your (creative) juices are not flowing like flowy things.

maybe if the whizz bang whallop scandies did come over here and play in our domestic circuit they would clean up? - would be nice to see and compare but they don't come over here very often. - Walsall, Luton and Sheffield just dont have the cosmopolitan appeal that Vienna, Monte Carlo and Helsinki have.

Maybe they don't come because they know they would get whopped......

(http://www.pokerpages.com/pokerinfo/tournamentgallery/ept/ept-patrick-antonius.jpg)

"Hello, I'm Patrick Antonius. Ever since I was a small boy growing up in Sweden I have dreamed of travelling to such cultural meccas as Luton and Walsall. As I sit accumulating chips in the drab dowdiness of Vienna or Monte Carlo, I find my heart wanting to be elsewhere. Alas, I feel I am not yet ready to challenge the mighty titans of these places. One day, Patrick, one day..."

 rotflmfao

Pay attention Kendall

I don't think I said I was referring to you Mr Flush.

Do pay attention.

raise

Raise? Wassat?

Interesting thread.

The average young Swede is considerably better than the average young Brit in my opinion. They are very aware of their table image, recognise what is going on at the table and above all fearless. However, a lot of these guys are backed by the more succesful players both online and in the live tournaments. So, playing better players will no doubt improve their standard of play. In my own experiences I find a lot of the younger Brits much tighter and more timid so it is very easy to outplay these guys.

There are of course obvious exceptions and I must say the older generation are much better in England and prove much tougher opponents than the younger players.

Oh yeah missed out that Greenstein fella.

tikay if you think we are so much better how about contacting one of blondes friends on the swedish or dainish or norwegien forums that love our live updates and asking them about a HU challenge between forums at a major festival next year

if its outside the uk i will even get myself a passport to come over and coach the blonde team (no point scaring our scandy friends off by telling them that 5-0 is playing)

i would love to see a 15 man blonde team take on the best of scandinavia in a HU battle

with my coaching we might even winn 11-4 (nothing i can do to sort out tikay's elblondies royal flush and jp's HU games)

on behalf of the collective known as "the 4 fish" FU!

Jennifer Tilley is an experienced player.........

Was that a euphemism or a whoosh ?

Looking at the list of films she's appeared in, she's certainly been involved in a lot of flops...

Hey come on, she fits right in with that list of names...

Shame Affleck didn't win one.

There was a Brits v Scandies Challenge on the Ladbrokes Cruise.

The last 4 remining players were all Brits.

The Scandie Team included Bengt Sonnert & Juha Sointula. The Brit's Team included Bob The Butcher Clarke.

I am 26.  If I wanted to take up golf at 26, people would laugh me off the course. " there is no way you can become a world class pro after starting so late". 

But with poker, as it is a mental sport. We should all be able to play well into old age, provided we are fortunate enough to hold onto a reasonable mind. Unlike golf or another more physical sport, poker players can continue to improve as they gain more experience.

In my opinion everyone on blonde is mentally capable of learning the required skills to compete with the poker elite. It doesn't matter if some of us don't fall into the first group of 'young' players.

I fall into the middle group. But even if I was a 65 year old rookie, I would still have the desire to win as much as an 18 year old like actionjeff does. So age has no bearing on success.

As far as geography goes, I also think that where a person lives is not important. We all breath, eat and sleep. It shouldn't matter if one person is from Denmark or from the UK. I think, as alot of the Scandies have had success recently, people are more likely to think they are more talented. Next year it may be people from Austrailia who are winning the online games . Will we be saying then " who is better the young Aussie pro's or the British pro's".

I am sure a 70 year old british pensioner could compete with a 18 year old Dane kid. If he was motivated to do so...

aussie will never dominate the online game due to the time difference

Age may not affect us but circumstances do.

Look at Chip Jett before and after family life.

lol. good point.   I will change that to Austrians ...  8)

this ignores the argument we frequently have on here...."some players are born witth it and some players learn it"

there seems to me to be an unbridgeable gap between a complete natural with those unteachable instincts in key situations and a "learn it by the book" player.

it is to my mind these instincts that can seperate the great from the good.

I thought someone would bring up this debate...lol

I definately think anyone can be a pro, if they want to be. 

Natural talent exists in other sports such as football and rubgy. These are physical sports. Poker is a mental sport like chess and backgammon. In these sports reasoning ability, experience and the ability to learn are the most important things.

The only thing players can be born with is a mind more suited to learning the game. There is no natural talent to poker, just enviroment and the ability to learn have an affect imo

At the risk of going over old ground, I'm with Mr End on this one.

The gap between each of the social player, the talented amateur, the journeyman pro and the international superstar is vast in my experience whether the game is mainly physical or mental.  It is possible sometimes to jump one category by sheer hard work but more than that?  I don't see it.  In poker terms, how can you explain, for example, the Phil Ivey hand versus AJ?  How do you learn that?

My attitude is to aim at the stars but, when my limitations become all too apparent, accept things as they are.  There is no disgrace as long as you are as good as talent and time permit.  As my running coach once said to me, 'the only reason those guys at the front are stars is because of all you buggers trailing along in their wake.  Just make sure you give them a hard time so they know they've been in a race'.

The important thing imv is to have a bloody good time while you are putting the maximum effort that family and work allow.

Rant over.  Do you want your soapbox back now?   :D

P.S.  Those who have genuine talent in any field and then waste it will be first up against the wall when I take charge  ;tk;

I am not sure I agree with this.....heart and instinct do provide for a natural talent in poker IMO albeit many many players can attain extremely high standards through technique and non instincitve abilities

I disagree - in recent years there have been 15 different players on the PGA tour in America who have won golf tournaments who are over the age of 40. With plenty of practice over the next 10 years provided there is ability there to start with there is no reason why you couldnt become a world class pro after starting so late.

Of course you need the ability there to start with - as you do with poker........

Thats true, I guess.  However, I think poker is a game that a person can improve with age. Just look at Doyle Brunson.

Do you think the 1972 Doyle Brunson could beat the 2006 Doyle Brunson. I think he is better now. Afterall, he has played against various generation of players, Moss and Amirilo Slim .....and now the Negreanu's and Iveys of the poker world. He is still able to compete with them.

But golf players tend to get worse as they get older. Look at Faldo or Jack Nickolas. Neither of them could compete with a modern day pro like a Woods or Vijay Sing( sp? ...lol ).

I agree with the 'ability being there to begin with' . But I always think physical sports have an element which mean a person can only take it so far. But, poker hopefully is something that can be learned and improved over time.

Do you know these two players, Matt?

http://www.vintagepostcards.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=VPC&Product_Code=SPORGO-F6794&Category_Code=SPORGO

Apologies, dont know either to be honest, though he does look as though he has a better swing than me to start with  :D

Your quote about players tending to get worse as they get older may be true when they reach 65-70 years old but you mention in your piece Vijay Singh - here is a prime example of what i was referring to in my first post. 10 years ago he was only 17th on the money list with winnings of $855k, Vijay was 33 years old back then. He broke $1m for the first time in 1997 when finishing 16th at age 34.

With plenty of hard work and practice he finally won his first PGA tour money list in 2003 aged 40 with just over $7m in total winnings then followed it up with a repeat in 2004 by becoming the first player to win over $10m in one season.

He always had the ability to start with but needed the application and dedication to practice to become one of the worlds greatest players.

ok, you may be right.










Note to self...... next time, use Ping-Pong as an example.  Monkeys know to much about golf...lol

Do you know any ping-pong players to use as an example ;)

I keep a track of the American PGA tour as its about the only sport left now that i still bet on, since discovering poker i have stopped all my other forms of betting like the horses and the dogs as i now get my "adrenilin rush" from playing poker. As golf last 4 days then at least i'm getting a proper run for my money and there can be some decent each way prices out there if your lucky (my best so far this season was Kirk Triplett to win in Tucson at 80/1 - and he duly obliged). I know its the wrong section but if anyone is interested Retief Goosen (12/1 WHills) and Sergio Garcia (33/1 S.James) are my each way tips for this weeks US Masters ;)

Nah, not really. But I do know that the world number 1 is called WANG. He is from China.   Maybe Mr F knows more than I do. He is a player.

OK, I will keep those tips for the Masters in mind   :)up

What instincts are there in the game? What has 'heart' got to do with it! It's all enviroment and learning, i can't see anything else (maybe physical stamina, but that can be trained into you to a high enough level for poker)

This enviromental conditiong does however go back many years before we start playing, it's not however a 'natural talent'

...i think!

Hmmmm... I'm not sure everyone who is naturally 'risk averse' can be "trained" to be 'risk loving'. Maybe one out of a few can, maybe even 4 out of every 5 can but not everyone can. (and lets be honest here, almost EVERY poker player who wins 1sts consistantly knows when it's time to just gamble in the 'risk loving' fashion)

Surely then an element of natural preference dictates how good you can become?

Someone mentioned Table Tennis and I wasn't notified?!! outrageous behaviour.

No, we mentioned "ping-pong" and we know that you professional Table Tennis players hate it being referred to as this which is why we didnt want to alert you to it in case it upset you!! ;)

Thank you Matt, you really are a considerate monkey.

So what is the discussion? 

"Sliced backhand or driven forehand" Discuss

no problem squire - anytime ;)

talking about whether age is a factor in sport and poker, i said that using golf as an example wasnt a good one as many of the winning golfers are over 40 years old, Sark claims next time we will talk about "ping-pong" as monkeys arent as clued up about that.

(which is true!)

I saw the "sliced ba..." and am now hungering for a sliced banana sandwich, mmmmmmmm.

<--------------- is popping into kitchen for 10 mins, will be back later ;)

Tightend, thanks for the invite but I have loads of work to do this afternoon and I think I've written enough drivel on this forum to keep everyone going.

As for the youth versus experience argument there are a few examples in the modern game you could look at.  The biggest one is the Legend that is Jan-Ove Waldner.  A household name in Sweden and a bigger name in China than Beckham is anywhere. 

He started his career in the early eighties and won consistently.  Won the Euro Juniors in 82 and Runner up in the Euro seniors of the same year.  Olympic gold in 92, silver in 2000 when people were writing him off and finally in 2004 astonished critics when he deservedly reached the semis but came fourth at a time in his life when he really had no right to.  A true legend. 

I saw him play against the Olympic Champion last year and he was still an amazing player. 

On a more local stage Alan Cooke has just retired for the second time at the age of 40 while English No1.  He came out of retirement about 2 years ago and has been on top of our rankings since. 

I think most top players reach their peak at about 28 and stay their until about 32 at which time the reflexes and speed start to wane.  Don't forget that the TT you see in youth clubs and sport centres locally is about 100 times slower and with less spin than on the TV so it can be quite a deceptive sport.

Our most promising player is Paul Drinkhall who at 16 was Cooke's Doubles partner in the Commonwealth Games.  But he still has a few years to go before he challenges on the world stage. 

He'd still make me look stupid though.

So in conclusion age definitely is a factor on the technical side of the game.  It's just too quick once the years catch up with you.  But as with most sports experience is a very important factor.

Now back to Tighty's question because I can't resist.

To quote the Baron quoting El-Brownie on another thread, it depends it depends it depends.

My preferred tactic is to slice backhand deep to my opponents backhand forcing him to lift the ball right in to my forehand drive across the table.

But if I get to the final on Saturday and it's 11-10 to me I'm pushing baby.

Whatever happened to Desmond Douglas ??

Ask any bloke between the age of 30-50 to name an english table tennis player and guess what answer you'd get.

Not sure mate but Carl Prean has just started playing British league again this season. 

Im sure the spread on answers would be pretty even between Douglas and Barnes, but we all know barnes went into horse racing ...

an english table tennis player only one i know is a certain Mr Bracken (according to heid thats his name)

I still reackon Douglas, although one of my ex-teammates has a bat cover signed by Barnes.  Way before my time I'm afraid.

Mr F, (if that is your real name?)

What happened in the mens doubles final at the commonwealth games?

I know we were playing the Nigerian team. What happened?

Chester Barnes is a quality name though :)

Ok 5-Nil I believe you are referring to the future High Wycombe and District Divsion 3 and 4 Champion.  I believe he is ravishingly good looking and pretty useful at the table.  I think you can see his stats for the season here:

http://www.hwdttl.org.uk/results.php

Baron, why would you think that Mr F is not my real name??

I was surprised that Baggaley and Rushton got to the final as they were up against the Singapore pair but they played brilliantly to get there Rushton especially.  Unfortunately I missed the final (way too much to drink and fell asleep) but they lost to the Nigerians.  But I think that a silver is way above what they expected.

http://www.englishtabletennis.org.uk/nlstory.cfm?ID=18119&NLID=3153

Kev you're right, unfortunately Denmark are ahead of us on that one with

Finn  Tugwell.

And I'm sure you can make something out of the world number 1

Wang Liqin

I am impressed Mr F.  You know more about Ping-Pong ( sorry, Table Tennis ) than I do about Formula 1 from the mid 1980's to around the year 2000. 

Before i found poker forums I spent my time on the interent divided between

My league website, the English Table tennis website and the ITTF website.

So I know a fiar bit, the years I had to check though so it's not all stored upstairs.  However you could test me on the last three years of the HWDTTL and I'd probably know it.

And credit to you Mr Sark for knowing the name of the world number 1, not many people would be able to name him.

I remember the name mostly from the Austrailia Olympics in 2000. I know he won the doubles, but I can't remember the name of his team mate. He is a tall guy.  Although everyone is a tall guy to me.  I am 5'6.... lol