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Poker Forums => The Rail => Topic started by: Maroon on July 16, 2005, 05:31:10 PM



Title: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Maroon on July 16, 2005, 05:31:10 PM
With the WSOP main event having over 5600 entrants there is possibly a greater need for lady luck to be on your side to make it through to the final table than any other tournament.  I am not saying the finalists have no skill before anyone jumps on me.  Clearly they do but there is luck needed to get to the final table in any tournament and this was a massive field to get through.

Which tournament or league then allows for the greater ratio of skill/luck?


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 16, 2005, 09:59:53 PM

Which tournament or league then allows for the greater ratio of skill/luck?



the International casino's festival of poker Irish rebuy event


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Robert HM on July 16, 2005, 10:05:40 PM
Oh yeah!?
And who won that then?

(you owe me a fiver for feeding you this line!)


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: tikay on July 17, 2005, 01:13:39 AM
Try guessing "blind". With 3 runners, it'd only be a 2/1 shot.......


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: AdamM on July 17, 2005, 09:25:41 AM
people talk about $25k entry making it more elite. why not go even further. if you want to find out who the best of the big names is (on that day only, I have often argued against the notion of a 'best' player) why not make it BIG. $100k entry
you'd pretty much get only the top money earners in the game.

Now that I'd like to see.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Maroon on July 17, 2005, 01:18:28 PM
Who's to say a big name is the best in the world?  Might be a lesser well known player but how would you find out?


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: AdamM on July 17, 2005, 01:46:15 PM
no, what I'm saying is with Poker, as with many other things, there is NO best in the world. The WSOP didn't establish the best player in the world this year, this festival or even this tournament. the winner of a poker tournament isn't the best player.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Maroon on July 17, 2005, 01:55:22 PM
Fair point.  I think after trying, unsuccessfully, to work out a formula to ascertain the best player I have to agree with you.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: tikay on July 17, 2005, 02:20:18 PM
I disagree with AdamM in the way he has tried to make his point here, here, but reallly, I think he has the same view as me.

What he really means, I venture to suggest, is that the WSOP, WPT, or any other event would not necessarily determine who was the best player in the world. There most certainly MUST be a "world's best player", but there is no accurate measuring criteria that can ascertain who it is.

By definition, there MUST be a world's best player, but we will never know who he or she is.

Let us hypothesise that, say, Greg Raymer really IS that man. He could enter 10 consecutive WSOP's, never win one of them, yet still be the best player in the world. That is cdue to the balance betwen luck & skill.

The nearest we can get here in Europe is to use the William Hill European Rankings ("Powered by Poker in Europe.com") as a guide. They are based on a calender year, and they also have a "rolling year". Any player that consistently sits at or near the top of that over a period of several years would be excused for thinking that he or she was more than likely to be a genuine candidate for Europe's best player.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: AdamM on July 17, 2005, 02:46:41 PM
No Tikay, it appears we do funamentally disagree on this one (nice how that can happen in such a friendly way here isn't it)
I don't think my definition there MUST be a 'best' at all. that implies a finite skill level. a perfection. in order to have a scale you must have a top and a bottom. asking who is the best is exactly the same as asking who is the worst. you can't answer it.

lets take a couple of obvious big names. how would you determine who is the better player between Ivey and Brunson. how many times would one have to out perform another to be considered better. if they both entered 100 tourneys and Phil Ivey out lasted Doyle Brunson in 60 would that make him the better player. what's to say the next 100 tourneys wouldn't swing back the other way.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: tikay on July 17, 2005, 06:56:45 PM
Well that would make Ivey the better player at that time.



Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Maroon on July 17, 2005, 10:56:32 PM
hmmm....I feel I've opened a can of worms here.  Still, good for the mental agility.  Keep thinking everyone.  :)


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: divaflava on July 17, 2005, 11:46:13 PM
this is why poker players need a proper organisation. How can you properly capitalise on the money-making potential of a sport where nobody knows who is number one?

poker is where tennis was in the early 70s. doesn't mark mcormakenroe (sic) play poker ffs?

the sport needs to grow up , agree a unified tournament structure system etc. as I'm sure various debbie harries have argued before me in order to market itself beyond the pokerbrat mentality. I, for one, am fed up, explaining to relatives/friends that it's not a game of chance.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 12:40:31 AM
The Sport will never grow up i'm afraid.

Too many companies out for what they want.

Too many players out for what they want.

And never the twain shall meet.

Organised rules???? Festivals not overlapping????? Organised players??????? Organised operators????????

I would help in any small way I can. I have sounded out a few card room supervisors, about getting together sometime to organise some rules that everyone could be happy about. And gotten some good responses. However, this would probably not be at a high enough level to make companies sit up and do what we want of them.

How about as an idea???? And i am gonna write this as i think of it.

Idea.  We get together as many card room supervisors, and a few players from each locale together and take a few days to sit and organise the rules. These could then be taken back to clubs and given the once over by the majority of players. Any problems could be ironed out at a further meeting with lots of input from the people who are going to be using them. Then we can go to the operators and say. LOOK WE AS "POKER LOVERS" have formulated these rules. The Supervisors who have to implement these rules like them, and feel they could work. Can you as a company adopt these rules?????? And maybe even The Gaming Board/Commisiion could be lobbied to change guidelines if they need changing.

I for one would join in. And the several supervisors I have spoken to would get involved. CAn the players get people together to speak for them? Then we could organise a meeting. Come on Tikay I know you are interested. Its not good enough for someone to come up with some rules that we can all use. Not that easy. We need to sit down and formulate and organise.

Idea Over

Yogi


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 12:48:01 AM

Idea. We get together as many card room supervisors, and a few players from each locale together and take a few days to sit and organise the rules. These could then be taken back to clubs and given the once over by the majority of players. Any problems could be ironed out at a further meeting with lots of input from the people who are going to be using them. Then we can go to the operators and say. LOOK WE AS "POKER LOVERS" have formulated these rules. The Supervisors who have to implement these rules like them, and feel they could work. Can you as a company adopt these rules?????? And maybe even The Gaming Board/Commisiion could be lobbied to change guidelines if they need changing.

I for one would join in. And the several supervisors I have spoken to would get involved. CAn the players get people together to speak for them? Then we could organise a meeting. Come on Tikay I know you are interested. Its not good enough for someone to come up with some rules that we can all use. Not that easy. We need to sit down and formulate and organise.

Idea Over

Yogi

wow how great minds think alike even if you copy my post nearly word for word from a couple of months back
now we have 1 card room super on side all we need is a couple more and to get players to put them selves forward

i am willing to help out in anyway needed


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 12:52:20 AM
http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=409.msg9539#msg9539


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 12:56:08 AM
I dont like to copy and paste. Knew I must have read it from somewhere.

But you know I get all my great ideas from you.

But what makes an idea great???? People willing to take up the challenge. There are more than just one supervisor. I have spoken to Dani from Walsall. Freak from Sheffield, NightFly from Notts. And Richard from The BRoadway. All have expressed a willingness to have discusions in some form or another. Hope I haven't committed them now. HEHEHEHE

I am meeting someone from Stanleys on Saturday at a mutual friends wedding and will be bringing this up with him.

So any players other than Ironside willing to participate???

I'm sure there will be. A cross reference of players would be best. Big tourney players. Grassroots players. Internet players, Cash only tourney only. The list goes on.

Altho this could turn out to need a bloody great big conference facility

Yogi



Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 12:59:15 AM
to truely make this work you would need to get reps from all the major online sites that are aiming at the UK market



Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 01:06:28 AM
We should start a new thread for this Ironside.

I may have some free time to put some effort into this and would relish the chance to do it.

I remember reading it now that i have re-read it, I have almost quoted it. HEHEHEHE. I've also  had the same conversation several times over the years. Perhaps is now the TIME. Let's go forward whilst we can.

The Blondepoker community is growing lets be pro-active and make a difference to everyones poker experience.

As you seem to know people at online sites, and Tikays friends. Plus the ones who work for online sites on here lets get them together.

If people are not willing to travel somewhere for a meeting then they prob aren't overly concerned about the game in general.

Yogi.



Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 01:10:48 AM
Public Apologies for ripping Ironside's idea word for word.

I'm sorry

Things stick in my mind, and I never know where things come from.

Excellent Idea From Ironside.

Yogi


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 01:13:03 AM
yogi i will leave the starting of a new thread to you and will ask tikay to make it a sticky so that it doesnt disapear from the board and out of minds again, but right now i am off to bed where i was supposed to be going 4 hours ago


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: ifm on July 18, 2005, 01:32:46 AM
hardly new but moot..............
About the number 1 thingy, if you could find a system for instating such a thing would that not prove the game to be skill and not chance?
I shouldn't need to explain the reason i ask............
BTW who says cardroom managers know what's good or bad? there have been some horrendous rule changes implimented by these folks "for balance" or "to make rules more black and white" and they have only done a disservice.
Good intentions do not add up to correct decisions.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 01:59:25 AM
And this would be an opportunity to change those bad rule changes. Would it not?? And yes some of the card room managers?? I think supervisors would be the right word to use. Might be that some of the ilk will bring "Bad Rules" to the table. Hopefully  then they could be noticed from the start. I know people want the TDA rules, and perhaps thats the ones that we adopt in this country.

 But if only players or only "managers" make the rules then the poker community as a whole would not be represented. Its this representation that wil stop YOU the POKER PLAYER from being dictated too.

Yogi



Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: BlueWolf on July 18, 2005, 02:23:44 AM
sounds grand to me, Ifm doesnt have a good opinion of supervisors does he??  been disqualified recently?? only joking lol

this sound slike direct rip off off my poker forum ( a meeting not a thing like this) hehehehehehehe


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 02:25:44 AM
We all have the same ideas as you know. Just with differences along the way.

And this is a steal from Ironside not you. Ive already credited him with it.

HEHEHEHEHEHE

Yogi


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: BlueWolf on July 18, 2005, 02:34:27 AM
git tikay likes my ideas even tho he misses me out of his enwspaper coloumn ahem


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: GiGi on July 18, 2005, 11:19:40 AM
as for getting all supervisors together and a few players, it does sound like a good idea but personaly i think alot of gm's couldnt be arsed setting it up and payin us, it would have to be done of our own back, there response would be u have national cardroom meetings for this, the company i work for as had a rules meeting months ago but their is a lazy supervisor among  us that cant be arsed typing them out, may be he feels he is far to superior to be writing out mere rulings


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: freak on July 18, 2005, 01:13:12 PM
Right

as to getting together with other supervisors/managers to thrash out some 'standard rules' i cannot wait to do it cos generally all the local rules suck worse than a sucky thing.
Napoleons casinos or at least the Sheffield ones WILL fully support a standard set of card room rules.
The sooner the better as far as i am concerned.....


Craig
Freak


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: GiGi on July 18, 2005, 01:27:58 PM
like i previously said we would all like it to happen, even if we set a rules meeting up their would be few or no general managers that would pay us for it, or pay our expenses


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 01:50:34 PM
Yes I would imagine it would have to be done off our own backs. And Freak has said that Napoleans will support it. I like the controversy and would love to fly in the face of the establishment.

I have no problems in going to someone other than the GM (might have problems there) HEHEHEHE. Maybe above them to see about how the company would receive it. In fact email sent as soon as I get to work tonite.

Yogi


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: GiGi on July 18, 2005, 01:52:56 PM
yogi ur such a rebel, lol


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Yogi-Bear on July 18, 2005, 01:55:51 PM
I prefer Rabble Rouser. Its so much more befitting.

C'mon rabble let's Rouse.

LOL

Yogi


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 02:27:15 PM
none of the players would be getting paid to be there either, and its in both the intrest of the card room staff and the players that this gets thrashed out as it will save the card room staff problems in the long run.

i would also make a suggestion that the meeting is called around the time of a big UK festival so all the players (and some of the staff) are in the location anyway making the costing cheaper for all concerned


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Bongo on July 18, 2005, 02:32:42 PM
You could always have an online meeting/video conference/discussion to save on travelling etc.


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: Ironside on July 18, 2005, 02:53:12 PM
You could always have an online meeting/video conference/discussion to save on travelling etc.
prelim meetings should be conducted over the net thus giving everyone a chance to partiapate
but final meeting should be face to face with intrested parties unable to attend having already expressed views
online which the chair of said meeting could bring forward when needed


Title: Re: Searching for the best in world...
Post by: tikay on July 18, 2005, 04:34:06 PM

As I have said elsewhere, blonde WILL support this 100%.